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Featured Faith vs Faith and Repentance

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Guido, Nov 14, 2022.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Faith:
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    After someone is "picked in their heart", with CONVICTION,
    can they have 'faith', 'belief', etc.,
    BEFORE the Gift of REPENTANCE and FAITH are GIVEN.

    These had CONVICTION that asked, "What must we do to be Saved", etc.

    I say, "no". Not "SAVING BELIEF" or "FAITH". The sinner is Spiritually dead.

    God has to OPEN the HEART.

    And it is God Who Quickens, us who were dead, SPIRITUALLY,
    with the Gift of REPENTANCE and FAITH GIVEN.

    That is the SPIRITUAL REGENERATION POWER of The NEW BIRTH.

    Faith is the Gift of God and REPENTANCE and FAITH are GIVEN, together.

    God Commands all men to REPENT of their LAW BREAKING SIN.

    Once they are "pricked in the heart", with CONVICTION,
    they are Commanded to "Believe" or have "Faith", etc.,
    but when they do, it is because God first switches the "off switch" to "on".

    Now, when "the light bulb comes on",
    it seems like it happened at the same time,
    but, chronologically and logically,
    the "light switch has to be switched", first.
     
    #101 Alan Gross, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  2. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Actually yes they can, That is what the drawing of God does. It brings them to the point of becoming poor (bankrupt) in spirit. So they are forced to make a decision.

    God does not turn the switch on for some people and give then no mover the ability to reject,. And keep the switch off for other people so they can never even have the ability to believe.

    How you can fathom this to be true just boggles my mind.. There is no love in a god who does that.
     
  3. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    This isn't being disagreed with either. There has to be enlightenment. But exactly when "regeneration" occurs is a sticking point for many.
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    from: The HATRED of GOD.
    His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 18

    #Ro 9:11-13. "The children not being yet born,
    neither having done any good or evil; that the purpose of God,
    according to election, might stand; not of works,
    but of him that calleth; it was said unto her",

    to Rebekah, the mother of them,
    while they were in her womb,

    "the elder shall serve the younger; as it is written,
    Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".


    And what is said of these,
    is true of all the objects of election and non-election.

    And now let it be observed, that this hatred is to be understood,
    not of any positive hatred in the heart of God towards them,
    but of a negative and comparative hatred of them;

    that whereas while some are chosen of God,
    and preferred by him, and are appointed to obtain grace and glory,
    and to be brought to great dignity and honour;

    others are passed by, neglected, postponed, and set less by;

    which is called an hatred of them;

    that is, a comparative one, in comparison of the love shown,
    and the preference given to others;

    in this sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

    "If any man hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
    and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
    he cannot be my disciple":


    the meaning of which cannot be, that a man
    must have positive hatred of such near relations, and of his own life;
    but that he should be negligent of these in comparison of Christ;...

    in like sense are we to understand the above expression
    concerning Esau, and all reprobates:

    and that this may appear yet clear, it should be observed,
    that in this business there are two acts of the divine will;

    the one is a will not to bestow benefits of special goodness;

    not to give grace, nor to raise to honour and glory:

    and this God may do antecedent to,
    and without any consideration of sin;

    but act according to his sovereign will and pleasure,
    since he is under no obligation to confer benefits
    ,
    but may bestow them on whom he pleases;

    as he himself says,

    "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" #Mt 20:15.

    The other act of the divine will is, to inflict evil;

    and that is always for sin, and in consideration of it;

    for though sin is not the cause of the act of the will,
    it is the cause of the thing willed,
    which is not willed without the consideration of it;

    they are the wicked God has made,
    or appointed to the day of evil, and no other;

    ungodly men, whom he has foreordained to that condemnation,
    vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction by sin;

    on whom it is the will of God to show his wrath,
    and make his power known, #Pr 16:4 Jude 1:4 Ro 9:22.

    In the one act, hatred, or a denial of grace,
    is without the consideration of sin;
    in the other, hatred, or a will to punish, is with it;

    punishment being only willed for it:
    but then God never hates his elect in any sense;

    they are always loved by him;

    to which hatred is opposite:
    he may be angry with them, and chastise them for their sins;

    yea, he may, as he says, and as they apprehend,
    in a little wrath hide his "face" from them;

    but he never hates them; though he hates their sins,
    and shows his resentment at them, he still loves them freely;

    renews, and raises them up by repentance, when fallen into sin,
    and manifests and applies his pardoning grace to them,
    and never bears any hatred to their persons.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    If ever, is a major concern.

    Presumed "Profession of Faith", or "belief", without REGENERATION,
    is the subject of, "Decisionsional False Profession of Faith",
    which the OP is asking about.

    For my part, I say that there is ALWAYS
    SPIRITUALLY WROUGHT CONVICTION of SIN,
    then REPENTANCE and (the SPIRITUAL ABILITY to have) FAITH.

    "...Therefore by the deeds of the law
    there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
    for by the law is the knowledge of sin."


    Both being The Activity of God in The Effectual Calling,
    prior to, "Belief", or "Faith", that is purely the result of fleshly consent,
    or many other things, without REGENERATION.

    According to the False Doctrine of Decisionism,
    the decisive factor in the Conversion of a sinner
    is the sinner's decision and cooperation,
    not God's Decision and Regeneration.


    Decisionism; i.e., MENTAL / PHYSICAL CONSENT
    to "trust", "believe",
    "have faith", have "true trust",
    "praying the sinner's prayer"
    "making "a decision",
    or signing a "Commitment Card"

    "calling upon The Name of The Lord",
    (without CONVICTION or REPENTANCE)
    "Making Jesus The Lord of your life",
    "not wanting to be 'Left Behind',
    "believing on The Lord Jesus Christ"
    without SPIRITUAL CONVICTION and SPIRITUAL REPENTANCE
    LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.


    CONSENT of SIN without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
    is without REGENERATION and LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

    The definition of "dead" in Ephesians 2:1,

    1"And you hath he quickened,
    who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

    is Ephesians 2:2,3, but also Ephesians 2:12;

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

    being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,

    and strangers from the covenants of promise,

    having no hope,

    and without God in the world:"

    This describes the SPIRITUALLY DEAD,
    of whom, also, are "Atheists".


    see: Decisionism: without God, or REGENERATION.

    Decisionism: without God, or REGENERATION.
     
  6. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Instead of trying to support your doctrine, and attack another doctrine you hate

    We are better off to look to th word. As a whole. And see what it says

    The wage of sin is death, That death will remain until the wage is taken care of.

    Thats called redemption. Which is base on the death of another (without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness…

    The forgiveness of sin, which enables the penalty of sin to be removed, and allows the wage of sin to be removed is a term called justification. Or declaration that one is righteous. Not because the person is righteous, but ln abrahams case. He believed God and on that basis God accounted him as righteous justified) and he declares that it is those people who have that faith will be justified as Abraham was.

    There is no salvation apart from faith

    And there is no new birth apart from faith. But UNTIL one is justified, they remain dead because of the wage of sin.

    I pray deeply you understand this fact.
     
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  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. The above shows us that you do not believe in universal atonement (unlimited atonement) since the ransom isn't taken care of for all humanity at the cross. Indeed, you rightly present that the atonement is limited.
     
  8. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Interesting. You continue to show a lack of understanding of what we believe, that you look for things and out of ignorance or refusal, do things like this over and over.

    Why did you ignore the fact that the wage of sin is paid by redemption and justification. Which is only through faith?

    I do believe in u verbal atonement, I jut do not believe God will force everyone to take his gift.

    Because God is not a dictator. He is a god of love as he claims.

    It is faith faith.. period

    Romans 4:
    Romans 4:16
    Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faithof Abraham, who is the father of us all

    It is through faith that the promise might be given to all. Jew or gentile.

    You want to remove faith from the equation f grace.. thats a mistake
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What I notice is that you worship faith as your savior.
    I notice that Jesus isn't needed in your doctrine. No gracious work of God is needed. For you, all that is needed is your willpower to have faith. You believe that your faith saves you.
    What I see is that you worship faith.

    Of course, this means if you ever waver in faith, you are damned once again. Do you attend a Nazarene church by chance?
     
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid some of the Calvinists on here are going too far in a rigid interpretation of God's sovereignty. I listen to this guy sometimes:
    I think he's a Calvinist but he doesn't seem to have any problem calling people to come to Christ and believe as if they can and need to do so. The way he talks should be pretty familiar to most Baptists or those that go to Bible Churches and I thought Calvinists too. What gives?
     
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Those of us who blieve what the Bible teaches about salvation by God's sovereign grace alone and not conditioned on anything in or done by sinners, certainly preach and teach and spread the gospel to all who are within hearing(or reading) distance. God has ordained the gospel of Christ as the means that the elect will come to repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. The elect, before God regenerates them, are not identifiable as different from all of the other lost sinners in the world.

    Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
     
    #111 KenH, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    So @KenH . When you look at Romans 10:13-15 and see someone who does call upon the name of the Lord, would you say that they are not really doing this but God is, or would you say that they are really doing this but because God has already regenerated or enlightened them and they are acting under God's power? It seems like a Calvinist like Spencer left a lot of room for the idea that the person had to decide to throw himself totally on God's grace but didn't seem to say that he could not decide to do that - or refuse to do that. Spencer was careful to warn that if you come to Christ and try to bring repentance with you as a way of showing you are worthy of coming to God that won't work. Yet I don't see that the non-Cals on here are saying that. How do you see it?
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What Calvinist would not call all to repentance? Of course we do this, knowing with all assurance that God will make alive all those whom he has chosen for salvation. The entire sermon to the Hebrews shows this same method of preaching.
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    (emphasis mine)

    Whose people? God's people.

    Whose power? God's power.

    Whose will? God's will.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "And he believed in the LORD",
    in which Abraham Believed The WORDS of GOD SPOKE to him.

    What did God Talk to Him about? Abraham's sin?
    to CONVICT him? "Ungodly" = sinner.

    Romans 4:5; "But to him that worketh not,
    but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly,
    his faith is counted for Righteousness."

    "...Therefore by the deeds of the law
    there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
    for by the law is the knowledge of sin."


    and The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
    THE GOSPEL.

    Romans 4:17-21
    "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)
    before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead,
    and calleth those things which be not as though they were…"


    Abraham BELIEVED The LORD, in the essential Word of the Lord,
    in Christ the Lord his Righteousness;


    Abraham believed in the promise of God,
    that Abraham should have a seed, and a very numerous one;

    Abraham believed that the Messiah would spring from his seed;

    Abraham believed in Him as his Saviour and Redeemer;

    Abraham believed in his Saviour and Redeemer for Righteousness,
    and he believed in JESUS' Righteousness as Justifying him before God:


    "and He counted it to him for Righteousness;"

    "it", here, is "Abraham Believed The WORDS of GOD
    concerning his Saviour and Redeemer" for Righteousness

    He, God, did not count the act of Abraham's faith, = Not "Faith", alone, i.e., OP,
    but, God did count, or credit, the Object of Abraham's faith,
    his Saviour and Redeemer's Righteousness,
    The Perfect, Virgin Born, LIFE of JESUS, Lived under The LAW,
    for Abraham's Righteousness;


    Abraham believed in the LORD
    and He counted it to him for Righteousness

    and not the promise he believed, but what was Promised,
    THE PROMISED MESSIAH

    and Once Abraham was Given REPENTANCE, from being UNGODLY
    and FAITH, in The Work of Jesus Christ, for his Salvation,

    REPENTANCE and FAITH = OP.

    Abraham's faith he was Given allowed him to receive, Jesus Christ,
    his Savior and His Righteousness

    John 8:56; "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day:
    and he saw it, and was glad."


    This Righteousness OF JESUS CHRIST'S
    was imputed to him without works,

    James 2:23
    And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
    Abraham believed God,
    and it was imputed unto him for Righteousness:


    and while he was an uncircumcised person,
    for the proof of which the apostle produces this passage,

    Romans 4:3; "For what saith the scripture?
    Abraham believed God,
    and it was counted unto him for righteousness."



    wherefore this is not to be understood
    of any action of Abraham being esteemed
    and accounted a righteous one,

    and Abraham pronounced and acknowledged
    a righteous person on account of it;


    Romans 4:5; "But to him that worketh not,
    but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly,
    his faith is counted for Righteousness."

    Romans 4:6
    "And David speaks likewise
    of the blessedness of the man
    to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"



    for Abram was not Justified before God by his own works,
    but by the Righteousness of Jesus Christ
    that was then imputed to him, as to all that believe,

    that is, by the Righteousness of Christ Revealed in the Gift of faith,
    and Received by the Gift of faith:

    what is imputation is without a man's works,
    and the imputation of it depends upon the Will of Another; = GOD.

    such is the Righteousness of Christ without works
    imputed by God the Father, to Abraham
    and all who are Given Belief.


    This is the first time we read of believing,
    and as early do we hear of imputed righteousness.

    Faith is the Gift of God.

    Being Granted REPENTANCE and FAITH is The New Birth.

    Until one is Granted REPENTANCE and FAITH
    then they are raised from the dead, SPIRITUALLY,
    and QUICKENED, MADE ALIVE, in The New Birth.

    Romans 4:17-21
    "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)
    before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead,
    and calleth those things which be not as though they were…"


    Those He Called, in the EFFECTUAL CALLING,
    which Accomplishes the New Birth (CONVICTION, CONVERSION,
    REPENTANCE and FAITH), them He also Justified.

    That was Taken Care of, by Jesus Christ,
    and in Giving The New Birth.

    The Shedding of blood picture is where Abraham,
    "Accounting that God
    was able to raise him up, even from the dead;
    from whence also he received him in a figure."


    Adapted from: Genesis 15 Gill's Exposition
     
    #115 Alan Gross, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  16. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I guess what I mean is like in that video from the 13 to the 15 minute mark he talks to someone. As a strict Calvinist, are you comfortable with the word choices he used and the way he put this? Same for the non Cals on here. I think that some of you would object to him saying "you need the aid of the Holy Spirit" and the general tone of the way he seems to present this as something you have to do. The self effort he warns about is involved with the idea of somehow trying to bring a repentance of your own in order to merit God's forgiveness, not the idea that YOU yourself actually do it.

    In other words, I agree that a Calvinist would call all to repentance. The question is, if someone says "Praise God, I have repented" would they be rebuked and told they didn't do that because it was a gift. Because that's the way it sounds on here with discussion of faith and repentance.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    If REGENERATION is said to take place AFTER one "believes", etc.,
    that gives the Glory to man.

    And there is no assurance REGENERATION has taken place at all.

    Where do you think that so many Apostate, lost, church members,
    Heretical, lost, preachers,
    and Blasphemous Forum posters come from?

    ...

    If REGENERATION is said to take place BEFORE one "believes", etc.,
    that gives the Glory to GOD.

    And, "SALVATION is of The LORD".
    ...

    SEE: Can An Arminian Be OSAS?

    "I'm glad you agree. Now, I believe the Arminian doctrine to have lended itself to WoF teachings (due to faith being innate ability, which has developed into a power source and the likes of Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen).

    "Also this has brought us the neo-Pelagianism, easy-believism, Free Grace Theology, decisional salvation and much more error. I believe the errant foundation has led to errors on the 'other floors' of this system."
     
    #117 Alan Gross, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace,..."

    Meaning either the promise of being heir of the world, "is of Faith"

    or the inheritance itself, "is of Faith"

    or adoption which gives heirship, "is of Faith"

    or remission of Sin, "is of Faith"

    or the blessing of justification, "is of Faith"

    either and all of these are of Faith;

    not Faith as the cause or condition of them, above,
    but Faith as the Means of God's Fixing
    and Appointing to be the recipient of all and each of the, above:


    which is done, "that it might be by Grace";

    and appear to be by the Free Grace and Favour of God,
    as each of these blessings, above, are:

    forasmuch as every blessing is received by Faith,
    it is manifest it must be by Grace;

    since Faith itself is a Gift of God's Grace,
    and lies purely in Receiving Favors at the Hand of God,
    to Whom it Gives all the Glory of them:


    ".... but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham...;"

    to the Gentiles, who though
    they are not by natural descent from Abraham,
    yet are of the same faith with him,
    and so are his seed in a spiritual sense:


    who is the father of us all; whether Jews or Gentiles,
    who are Christ's, and so Abraham's Spiritual Seed,
    and heirs of Eternal Life, according to the Free Promise of Grace.

    adapted from: Romans 4 Gill's Exposition
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Here is The Law to CONVICT;

    Romans 10:2 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
    but not according to knowledge.

    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
    and going about to establish their own righteousness,
    have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

    5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,

    That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

    ...

    And we can throw a little Gospel in there, with this preceding verse;

    Romans 10:9
    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
    and shalt believe in thine heart
    that God hath raised him from the dead
    , thou shalt be saved.
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The (*note) at the bottom of the hymn lyrics I posted elsewhere may give insight to the use of such language - "Called of God" | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)
     
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