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Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Nov 25, 2010.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    YNG - Rom 10:17 -
    so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God,

    Is this a report??

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Do you or anyone else reading this believe this report??
     
    #21 percho, Nov 26, 2010
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    #22 percho, Nov 26, 2010
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    #23 freeatlast, Nov 26, 2010
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    To answer the question, salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus. Both are different in substance from "grace".

    "Grace" means unmerited favor. "Salvation" means to have a right relationship with God (saved from God's wrath). "Faith" means to trust or believe in such a way that your life is transformed by that "faith".

    It stands to reason, imho, that God's intervention in the lives of men to bring them to salvation is the very definition of "grace". God intervenes by Holy Spirit to draw a person Jesus; convicting them of sin, bringing them to repentance, regenerating their very beings that results in faith and salvation.

    At salvation, Holy Spirit indwells the person as the pledge/promise of God that the testimony concerning Jesus Christ; His sacrificial atonement, resurrection and final return is true and can be trusted.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #24 canadyjd, Nov 26, 2010
  5. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I never thought of it that way... :) good logic!
     
    #25 zrs6v4, Nov 26, 2010
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    #26 convicted1, Nov 27, 2010
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Hey Bro. Willis. Good to "see" you.:thumbs:

    One correction. I did not say, nor do I believe, nor have I ever even for a brief moment believed that faith comes AFTER salvation.

    The common problem that Arminians have with Calvinists is that they really just ASSUME what Calvinists believe and are usually wrong. I did that for years. I was vehemently against Calvinism until I learned that what I thought Calvinism was- was not at all what it actually is.

    The problem is that some people seem to think that "regeneration" and "salvation" are nothing more than synonyms. So when one says "regeneration precedes faith" the Arminian who does not uderstand the terms automatically assumes that that person is saying that "SALVATION preceds faith". The problem is a misunderstanding of the terms- a thinking that the terms are synonymous. This is not at all the case in the Scripture.

    Regeneration is necessary for salvation as is repentance. But regeneration is no more salvation than repentance is salvation. Both are necessary for salvation.

    Regeneration is when the spiritually dead revive and are able to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

    The Bible clearly teaches that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE FOR THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. Regeneration enables a man to be more than natural. It is the breaking forth of spiritual life much like a seed that was dead suddenly bears life and that life breaks forth and reaches for the light.

    Just so, regeneration is life breaking forth and reaching for the Light.
     
    #27 Luke2427, Nov 27, 2010
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  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Psalms 87:

    1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.

    2 The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

    3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

    4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

    5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

    6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

    7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.


    Brokyredneck,

    As I previously stated in my last post, none of what Jesus did came to fruition(meaning the finished "product"), until He died, was buried, was raised, and received into Glory on the day of Pentecost. Jesus stated as He was hanging on the cross, "It is finished", which I think meant the plan of salvation, and also meaning the Old Law was finished, too. See, we gentiles had no hope until Jesus came and died for us. He made it possible and passable for us by His death!

    Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    When did this happen??

    Matt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    After He was resurrected, and many got up AFTER He did, and went into the holy city and appeared unto many. I believe these are the 144,000 that John wrote about in Revelation. 12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel(Jacob).

    Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

    38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

    39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.


    Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

    45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

    46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Now Bro kyredneck, there were some gentiles(Rahab and Ruth come to mind) that were "adopted" into the Jews naturally speaking, but now, we are "grafted in" by the blood of Jesus Christ.

    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    So I guess, in essence, Psalms is talking about two Jerusalems, one here on earth now, the other that will come as a "bride adorned for Her Husband", which is the body of Christ, His people. Did I answer this in the manner you were looking for?? Love you Brother!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #28 convicted1, Nov 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2010
  9. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Convicted1,

    In John 3 Jesus addressed Nicodemus' problem of knowing Jesus is from God, but not understanding the kingdom of God or what Jesus was doin. Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again to see and enter the kingdom. Jesus then said that it was the Spirit who did this mysteriously. In 3:8 Jesus said something like- Are you a teacher of Israel and still don't understand these things?

    Either way go back and read it and see what you come up with. Even before that look at Ezekiel 36-37 where I think Jesus is drawing from. The point is that regeneration was not something that began after the ascension of Christ, but in Jesus words it seemed to be a past taught and present reality.
     
    #29 zrs6v4, Nov 27, 2010
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Amen.

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8
     
    #30 kyredneck, Nov 27, 2010
  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Bro Luke,

    It's good to "see" you again, too!! I pray that all went well on "turkey day"!!:thumbs:

    Now, you say that "regeneratin" and "salvation" aren't the same?

    Here's the greek word for "regeneration: paliggenesia 3824 Strong's:

    1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

    a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

    b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

    c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

    d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

    e) other uses

    1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

    2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

    3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection

    This is found in Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5...only two verses.

    Here's the first greek word used for "salvation": sōtēria 4991

    1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

    a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

    b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

    1) of Messianic salvation

    2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

    3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

    Here's a quote: Scripture describes a fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and the pleasure of sin. (cf. Arthur W. Pink, A Fourfold Salvation)

    This word is found 45 times in 43 verses.

    The second greek word used for "salvation": sōtērios 4992 Strong's

    1)saving, bringing salvation

    2) he who embodies this salvation, or through whom God is about to achieve it

    3) the hope of (future) salvation

    So, in a sense, the two words, regeneration and salvation are quite similiar. You don't get salvation without being born again, and you don't get "born again" without salvation. So they do go hand in hand. Faith is the vehicle which we drive that leads us to salvation/regeneration. Without the "vehicle", you can't get anywhere. With love!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #31 convicted1, Nov 27, 2010
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What happened with gentiles before the cross?

    [edit] ...and how was it that the Jews had hope? ....in other words, 'What advantage then hath the Jew?'.
     
    #32 kyredneck, Nov 27, 2010
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  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Two things:

    1. That lengthy definition does not teach that salvation and regeneration are the same thing.

    In fact one part of it says: "bringing salvation" which is what it is. As a matter of fact all of the highlighted sections teach that regeneration precedes salvation. Take also the segment: "that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation". That is what regeneration does. It leads to a conclusion, that conclusion being salvation. It is NOT salvation. It is a step in the process to the conclusion which is salvation.

    2. That definition does not say that faith precedes regeneration. I noticed you quote Pink in there somewhere- Pink, of course believes that faith follows regeneration. Pink is a fine Calvinist.

    Think about it, my Brother Willis. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. That is what the Bible says.

    Then how do some people receive the things of the Spirit of God? There has to be some change, doesn't there?

    What is that change? Regeneration.

    Now that man who was once nothing but natural CAN receive the things of the Spirit of God. That receiving is "faith". Faith MUST be post regeneration.

    Here is how it works:

    NATURAL MAN- Unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

    REGENERATION- The man begins to become something more than natural. Now he is able to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

    FAITH- receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

    ETERNAL SALVATION- the ends to which the means of regeneration and faith and repentance were aiming towards.
     
    #33 Luke2427, Nov 27, 2010
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  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Regeneration and salvation are the same thing. To be regenerated means to be made alive. It means to be born again, to have everlasting life. There is not one word in all of scripture to support your doctrine that regeneration and salvation are separate events.

    That the dead can believe, and that the moment they do will be made alive is shown by Jesus himself.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Contrary to what you teach, Jesus himself said the dead can hear the voice of God, and those that hear (accept and believe) shall live.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Again, Jesus said he that heareth my word and believeth hath everlasting life, and says this person is passed from death unto life. So, you do not pass from death to life until you first hear and believe. A person is not regenerated until they first hear and believe.

    Whatever you hold regeneration to be, it cannot mean life, because you do not have life until after you believe. And this must be so, because your sins cannot be taken away until you believe. And you cannot be spiritually alive and dead in your sins at the same time, that is impossible. But that would be the case if your doctrine is true.

    John 20:31 says "and that believeing ye might have life". You have to first believe to be regenerated, that is, made alive. John 3:36 says he "that believeth" hath "everlasting life" and says he that "believeth not" shall "not see life". So believeing determines whether you will live or die. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite, Calvinism teaches that you must live to believe. This is absolute error.

    John 20:31 does not say "and living ye might believe", but that is what it should say if your doctrine were correct.
     
    #34 Winman, Nov 27, 2010
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  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    This is nonsense and you cannot show one word of scripture to support it.

    The whole idea is silly, according to your doctrine, you must be made alive so that you can then believe and receive life. If you already have life, why would you need to believe? You already have life. So, this is nonsense.

    Whether a man believes or not is a matter of the will. Those who choose to believe can.

    Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

    Jesus didn't say they couldn't believe, he said they "will not".

    John 4:Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

    Again, Jesus said "will not".

    Thomas was a believer, but he showed that believeing is a choice.

    John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    Believeing is a choice. It is a judgment. It is a judgment that another person is truthful and trustworthy or not. It is a choice. You can decide to trust or not to trust anyone.

    If a stranger approached you and asked to borrow your car, you probably wouldn't do it (I wouldn't). Why? Because you do not know them and do not know if they will return your car. But you could decide to trust them if you choose to do so. Probably a poor decision, but you could do so, it is within your power.

    If a family member asked to borrow your car, you would likely agree. Why? Because you know them and know they will take care of your car and return it safely. However, you could refuse. Trusting is a choice.
     
    #35 Winman, Nov 27, 2010
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  16. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    :thumbs:

    ...Bob
     
    #36 BobinKy, Nov 27, 2010
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The topic of this passage is salvation, not faith.

    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Paul repeatedly speaks of being saved here, of being quickened and being raised up.

    Once and only once does he mention faith. The topic of this passage is salvation, not faith.
     
    #37 Winman, Nov 27, 2010
  18. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Grace is the benevolent act of God; faith is the responsive act of a grace-filled man.

    A good study is the prodigal son...See the time span between when grace is administered and faith responds.

    Calvinists don't deny the freedom of man to choose. It comes under the permissive will of God. The father in the prodigal son story displayed grace from the very beginning. The prodigal rebelled, went his own way and suffered...the father never gave up, but didn't go chasing after him either. The son fell into the pit of despair and sought God's and the father's forgiveness. The son decided to go home. The grace of the father was still in effect. Now the gift of faith is enacted..prodigal,,faith in the father...us faith in the Christ....man is making a decision in faith under the permissive will of God to walk in the right direction in God.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #38 Jim1999, Nov 27, 2010
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, I agree with this as well as you. I do not believe any man could be saved unless God first revealed his grace to man.

    But the prodigal son is not a good argument to support Calvinism. If Calvinism were true, the father would have chased the boy down, bound him (Irresistable Grace) and brought him home.
     
    #39 Winman, Nov 27, 2010
  20. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Winman, I got a kick out of what you said here.

    Also, check out Romans 2:4. Check out how "leadeth" is interpreted throughout Scripture. Sometime it means led by force, by it's implication.

    Do you believe God was instrumental in the situations the son faced, and used them to bring him to his senses and to the father? I happen to believe this to be the case.
     
    #40 preacher4truth, Nov 27, 2010
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