Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

Of course they do, but then use circular arguments to say they don't.

Look, if man cannot choose Christ unless God regenerates him, then man does not have the freedom to choose.

If I am locked in a jail cell and you have the key, I cannot come out unless you let me. I do not have freedom. You can use circular arguments as all Calvinists do, but this is basically what it comes down to. According to Calvinism the unregenerate man is locked in a jail cell that he cannot escape, and God holds the key.

 

and that word "that" just happens to come right after the reference to faith.

 

A person must first receive Jesus through faith (John 1:12, 13; Acts 16:31).

 

PHP:

[quote="Winman, post: 1536327"]Regeneration and salvation are the same thing. To be regenerated means to be made alive. It means to be born again, to have everlasting life. There is not one word in all of scripture to support your doctrine that regeneration and salvation are separate events.

Salvation and regeneration are two different words with two different meanings. There is not a reputable scholar in the history of the Christian church who would say otherwise.

One means to be made alive.

The other means to be delivered from.

That is simple, Winman. They do not mean the same thing and you do not get to make them synonyms to support your doctrine.

They do not mean the same thing any more than repentance and salvation mean the same thing.

I don't have to give you a verse to prove that repentance and salvation are not the same thing. They are not the same word and do not have the same definition. Just so I do not have to give a you a verse to prove that regeneration and salvation and the same thing. They are two different words with two plainly different definitions.

BTW, you still owe me a retraction, don't you? Ask and I'll point out yet again the two posts you owe me a response to.

Yes, the word of God is the very thing that makes alive as I have already proven to you several times in past exchanges.

Nope. That's what I've been telling you.

Yep. That's proof of what I am telling you. You must hear before you can believe. You hear because the voice of God awakens you to new life. That's regeneration before conversion, yet again.

This is much like the exchange where you kept quoting the verse out of John over and over again like that verse proved that believing comes before regeneration and then I proved to you that that verse does not say what you try to force it to say- and mysteriously you disappeared from the conversation rather than yielding.

Regeneration does mean life and that is plain to everyone I have ever spoken to but you.

This is your favorite verse to use on this subject. This is the one I have proven to you that you abuse so terribly in demanding that it teach what you want to say. It is your favorite verse because it is the only one you ahve that can even be misconstrued to mean what you want it to mean. I proved proved your error in the previous exchange we had on this subject.

 

There have been debates on this passage for centuries. Many scholars say "that" refers to salvation, many say it refers to faith, and even a very few say it refers to grace.

The Calvinist will of course say it refers to faith because it supports their doctrine.

Fact is, the passage is about salvation, not faith. Here is a pretty good article from the other perspective.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/godgift.htm

 

It's not just Calvinist that believe that faith is included. I say that it's the whole package, faith included.

 

I have shown you repeatedly that this is false. John 20:31 clearly says you must believe to have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That you must believe to have life (regeneration) is shown many times in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who should not perish but have everlasting life? He that believes.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who is not condemned? He that believes.

I could show you many more. All of these verses speak of salvation, of receiving everlasting life. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not a salvation verse, it is speaking of understanding the deeper teachings of scripture. But the gospel is simple, even a child can understand it.

See, you have a problem with the Philipian jailer. He had not believed yet, so according to John 3:18 he was still condemned (he that believeth not is condemned already).

Now how in the world could he have been regenerated? Do you believe he could be regenerated and condemned at the same time? Ridiculous.

Calvinists claim regeneration is being made spiritually alive, but you are condemned until you believe, therefore you cannot be spiritually alive until after you believe. Therefore you cannot be regenerated until after you believe.

You ignore many verses that clearly teach you do not have life until you believe, and cling to a single verse that is not speaking of salvation.

Verses that teach you must first believe to have life

John 3:36
John 3:15,16
John 1:12
John 5:24
John 6:47
John 20:31
Hab 2:4
Rom 1:17

I don't know what you Calvinists mean by regeneration, but it certainly cannot mean life, because you do not receive life until you believe on Jesus and all your sins are taken away. Until then you are condemned in all your sins and spiritually dead.

 

You're right- you don't know. You really don't. You have no idea what Calvinists believe and yet you hate their doctrine. It is illogical.

In another thread you said that you have never in your life met a Calvinist who can understand Scripture to which I responded:

You must be kidding. No reputable Arminian scholar would make such a ridiculous remark. Luther, Beza, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards and simply the greatest Bible scholars of all time don't understand the Scripture?

Aren't you KJVO? You do know that the KJV is a predominantly Calvinist work don't you?

In fact the TR which they used is a text passed down from Erasmus (who was no Calvinist) to Theodore Beza (who was, of course THOROUGHLY Calvinist). It was primarily Beza's version of what would later become known as the TR which the KJV translators used. And the vast majority of the translators themselves were thoroughly Calvinist.

Your favorite Bible comes from a text which an edition of a teacher of false doctrine and your favorite version of the Bible was translated by a bunch of false doctrine peddlers according to you.

How exactly do you deal with that?

I wish you would not make silly remarks like this. I know the rolly eyes frustrated you, and perhaps they were a bit snotty, but your above comments do not help your case at all.

Let's get back on topic. An recant of that statement would be helpful in my opinion.

 

I just posted half a dozen verses that all say you must first believe to have life. And Jesus himself showed the dead can believe.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Your position is absurd. You believe a person must have life in order to believe in order to have life. That is ridiculous. Laughable.

No, the scriptures clearly show a person must first believe to have life, therefore the unregenerate must be able to believe. And that is exactly what Jesus says in John 5:25. He doesn't say the living shall hear his voice and live, he says the dead.

The problem with Calvinism is that it does not understand the biblical term death. Death means to be separated from God in your sins, it does not mean to be like a lifeless corpse.

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus is speaking of spiritually dead people who were quite alive physically. They are not like a lifeless corpse.

The rich man who died and went to hell was spiritually dead, yet he could see, speak, feel pain, hold a conversation with Abraham who is saved, and even repented and prayed that his brothers be saved. Calvinism does not understand spiritual death at all.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This rich man who died and went to hell is spiritually dead, but very functional. This teaching that the spiritually dead are like a corpse is error.

 

Who believes an unsaved person is a lifeless corpse? Name one Calvinist that does and show evidence that they believe such.

 

Give me a break, Calvinists have compared the unregenerate to a dead person (lifeless corpse) probably hundreds of times on this forum.

 

What's wrong with that, Winman, the description? God says we are DEAD spiritually. Should we paint the picture prettier than that? If you ask, should we paint it uglier, ask yourself, how ugly, in fact is sin to the Holy, Righteous, Just, Sovereign God?

 

If regeneration and salvation are different, please show scripture to support this. And not something vague.

Regeneration as you believe it cannot mean spiritual life, because you cannot have spiritual life until all your sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are dead in trespasses and sins. I have already shown several verses to support this (John 3:18 for one).

You really don't see how great an error you are teaching. You are teaching a man can have life without Christ. You are teaching a man is made alive before he receives Christ. I have posted statements from Calvinists who say a person can be regenerated for many years before trusting Christ. This is teaching you have life for years without Jesus. If you can't see the tremendous error here, you are in bad shape.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

No, they say that they are spiritually dead. No Calvinst thinks a unsaved person is a zombie. There is a comparison yes. Do you know what comparisons are? Maybe a little lesson in reading would help you out. They are to draw out a point, not to say that 100% of the comparison is to be compared. Unsaved people are spiritually dead as dead person is physically dead. It's comparing ONE area, not all.

 

They are two different words, having two different definitions. Is regeneration the same as repentance? Is repentance the same as justification? Is justification the same as faith? Is Faith the same as grace? come on Winman, basic definition of words.

Where did Luke say that "a man can have life without Christ"? For me, regeneration happens at the same time as faith, repentance, justification, grace...

 

Calvinists have to redefine the word dead in order for their theology to work. To be spiritually dead doesn't mean one cannot respond to the gospel. It means separation from God.

Was not Adam spiritually dead when God called out to him "where are you?". Yet Adam responded to Him.

 

Since you fellas will not be honest and confess that many Calvinists say the unregenerate is like a corpse, here is a statement from a Calvinist.

There have been many statements like this from Calvinists on this very forum and you know it. I will not bother to search for them and post them, as you know very well this is the truth.