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fallacies of "non-cals"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 24, 2011.

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  1. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

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    Usually with your type debating Scripture is useless since we will never see a verse the same way because of different perspectives. For the record I am NOT ARMINIAN, nor am I Calvinist obviously. It seems that your sir are the one being "emotional" in this thread. You have proven next to nothing but lashed out with a verbal diatribe about everything.

    I cannot agree with you since I do NOT support L-Limited atonement or or U- Unconditional election. So you see, because of our differing perspectives, we must continue to agree to disagree.
     
    #41 Tater77, May 25, 2011
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    And where is this rule that says NOT to use the font provided?

    I'll answer your question though it is absurd in the highest degree if you will answer this one:

    What is so special about free will that God is willing by it to damn billions and billions of souls- the vast majority of the human race which has ever had it (not babies- they don't make choices)- but the VAST majority of the human race which has ever had free will has used it to choose to spit in God's eye and damn themselves to roll and tumble in the sizzling fires of hell forever and ever- what is so special to God about free will.

    To me your "free will" doctrine is an even MORE "horrible decree".

    It works like this (since you wish to use children illustrations):

    You have 7 children. But you want them to CHOOSE to obey you. So you lead them to a cliff. You tell them- I am going to leave for a while. Do not play close to that cliff. You will fall and die. But you know that 6 of the seven are going to choose to play near the cliff. You convince yourself the stupidest of all lies that it makes you LOVING that you give them a choice.

    So how is your god more loving? Just as many perish at the plans of your god as at the plans of mine.
     
    #42 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Then what's your point?

    What is the point of your posts on this thread???

    You cannot be changed by your own admission. So what good would it have done for me to pet you rather than point out to you the cold hard facts?

    NONE.

    This is my point.

    The goal is not to persuade everyone. The goal is to put the facts out there. Those who are interested in facts will be persuaded. Those who need to be politicked in are worthless anyway- in the sense that there position is meaningless. They got it because somebody made them FEEL good about it. What victory is there in getting such a person over to one's side.

    If one will not listen to reason then I do not CARE if that person EVER sees the truth on these issues. Frankly, I think too many of us waste our time courting people who think with their emotions.

    Reasonable people want it plain and blunt and clear.

    That's what I offer.

    The others- I do not care if I push them away. They are not a great catch anyway.


    And one more thing. Your statement about seeing the Scriptures differently undermines the all important doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture.
    I see it the way it is. Scripture is clear. You see it the way it suits you, I suppose.
     
    #43 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  4. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    OK, scream all you want, it only shows immaturity.

    I believe God is a God of perfect justice. God will, in His own way, bring perfect justice to those who have never heard and very possibly in the process reprimand us for their now hearing.

    God will work all things out in perfect justice. There is no justice in election.




    You avoid my question. Which of your children would you willingly and purposefully sacrifice for your own glory. That is what you say God is doing with election.

    As to numbers you are speculating. I don't. God loves us enough to allow us to make our own decision ... those of us who have heard.
     
    #44 Crabtownboy, May 25, 2011
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    There is not a real Christian on earth who does not believe in election. Election is in the Bible. Arminians, Calvinists, Molinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Greek Orthodox- EVERYBODY believes in election- everybody but you, I guess.



    I told you I would answer this absurd question once you answered my question.


    It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

    Your doctrine has God placing such a RIDICULOUS premium on free will that he FRIES in hell forever the vast majority of the human race just so he can have these creatures with free will.

    It is absurd in the highest degree.

    Now, would you let your children choose to play near the cliff because you love them so much that they should be free to choose to perish?

    Answer that and I will address your, what I consider to be, silly question.
     
    #45 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  6. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    So, in your opinion, I am not a 'real' Christian unless I believe in election as you understand it. Is this correct?



    I see, when you have no answer you then avoid it by saying you first. Common tactic of those who see they are trapped and no way out.


    But you say he predestined them to hell and they had no choice in the matter. There is no love nor justice in predestining millions to hell and they have no choice in the matter ... and it certainly does not glorify God as you and Piper suggest.




    Knowing children they will play at the edge of the cliff, both literally and figuratively. So, I advise them and teach them ... just as my parents did in handling axes, guns, farm machinery, etc. as I was growing up. They knew that a person cannot keep their children from danger, but they can teach them and show them how to remain relatively safe.



    Now, answer my question about which child you would sacrifice for your own glory ... as this is what you say God does by predestining millions to hell.

    I won't be able to reply until after June 10th. I have a huge project I am finishing up and then I am flying to the visit the 3 Baltic countries and will be out of touch while there.

    Cheers.
     
    #46 Crabtownboy, May 25, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I was very clear. I've never known of a Christian who said "There is no justice in election."

    This is the problem when people who are not educated theologically begin to tackle these matters with what little understanding they have. They start to say things like this that NO educated Christian believes.

    You have God creating the exact same people for hell as Piper and I do.
    Unless you are an Open Theist, then you believe that God KNOWS if he creates this person that this person is going to spend eternity in hell- yet he goes right ahead and creates them anyway.

    The difference between what we believe and what you believe is that you think human free will is a worthy enough cause for the perishing of billions.

    We think that is idiotic.

    We think that the glory of God is a worthy enough cause.

    So you have billions perishing. We have the same billions perishing.

    You justify there damnation by saying God wanted free will creatures that badly.

    We justify their damnation by saying that God wanted there to be evil so that he could display love and grace to the fullest.

    There is no Calvary love apart from sin.

    So- same billions perishing. Your reasoning- the Almighty Free Will. Ours- the glory of God.

    It is really a no brainer.

    But you will still allow your small children to play next to the cliff EVEN THOUGH YOU COULD STOP THEM, right?

    God could have STOPPED sin from coming into the world. But he didn't.

    Explain.


    NONE for my glory. NONE. But I should be more than willing to sacrifice them all for HIS glory.

    So should you.

    So should God. God should be willing to sacrifice all men for his own glory if that is what his own glory called for.

    Christ saw that glory worthy of sacrifice. And God did sacrifice his only begotten son for that very purpose.

    There is your answer.
     
    #47 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Whether you want to admit it or not,you fall into the Arminian camp. It may not be a perfect fit,but you don't even qualify as an Amyraldian.
     
    #48 Rippon, May 25, 2011
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes,it's all about the Lord's grace and mercy.
     
    #49 Rippon, May 25, 2011
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    So no Gentile is ever given by the Father to the Son?! Where do you come up with this stuff. Anyone who is saved they were given by the Father to the Son. I suppose you are a Gentile. Are you saying there was no transference between the Father and the Son in your case? You are out in the boonies on this one Skan.
     
    #50 Rippon, May 25, 2011
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    On another thread someone was asking about the benefit of an analytical concordance. Well, if you have one, you can look up on the occurrences of kosmos and you will see that it very frequently does not mean 'all the people in the world.'

    have a look at John 14:22, Rom 1:8, 1Cor 1:21, James 3:6, 1John 2:15, to name but a few, and you will see that they cannot mean all the people in all the world.

    Steve
     
    #51 Martin Marprelate, May 25, 2011
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  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You're absolutely right- if by "very frequently" you mean it almost NEVER means every single person in the world.

    But really when you get down to it, this is the WHOLE FOUNDATION of the "non-cal" belief system.

    If you take from them the "all" and "whole world" proof texts, they have almost NOTHING.

    Then if you address the second fallacy- that God is not bringing his will to pass- that's really it.

    Yet there are more fallacies that they have which can also easily be addressed.

    The longer I study the more I am amazed that there are people who actually believe this stuff which has God not getting his way and not in charge and rests almost WHOLLY on a handful of bible passages extraordinarily poorly exegeted.
     
    #52 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Trust in Jesus is

    I am on ignore, but that is O.K. When you see that election was no guarantee for the Jews, that the were disowned for disowning Jesus. That they were cut out for unbelief, and could not enter. That we have to make sure our election is sure. That you got to make sure when you preach that you yourself will not be disqualified for the prize. The goal of our faith the prize is the salvation of our soul. To work out our salvation with fear and trembling. They make an excuse not to believe those scripture to.

    When we turn to Jesus anyone then and only then will the veil be removed, not before.

    So the only true guarantee found in scripture is to trust in Jesus.

    1 Peter 2:6
    For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

    Now that is a sure foundation.
     
    #53 psalms109:31, May 25, 2011
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  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I don't think i'm in disagreement with anything you say here. The elect will be saved beyond a shadow of doubt, but they will only be saved if they repent of their sins and trust in Christ. Therefore anyone who is relying on his supposed election is living a life of unrepentant sin, he is deceiving himself (1Cor 6:9-11).

    Yes, but unless God removes the veil no one will ever turn to Jesus (John 6:44 etc., etc.). First God works in our hearts, then we believe, then we get 2Cor 3:18.

    Steve
     
    #54 Martin Marprelate, May 25, 2011
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    gospel

    Ops a double post sorry
     
    #55 psalms109:31, May 25, 2011
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  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    gospel

    We are to come to Jesus an empty vessel the only way to do that is in repentance. To just trust in jesus and listen and learn from Hin and then He romoves the vei.l The scripture teachees to turn to Him and then He removes our veil. That is the Gospel message.
     
    #56 psalms109:31, May 25, 2011
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Yes. but the Lord opened Lydia's heart to repond to Paul's message (Acts 16:14). She could not open her own heart anymore than Lazarus could raise himself from the dead.

    Steve
     
    #57 Martin Marprelate, May 25, 2011
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    I will not take away from the work of the Holy Spirit or claim it as my own. The word of Jesus is life and the Spirit. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The life and the word of Jesus, for Jesus dwell in us through the Holy Spirit.

    It opens their heart to do two roads not one. You can either come to Jesus as Lydia did or do as the young rich ruler. The words are calling us to follow Jesus, but we can walk away like the young rich ruler did.
     
    #58 psalms109:31, May 25, 2011
  19. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Luke2427

    I posted...

    And you responded....


    Nonsense. Its the truth of the scriptures.

    Nonsense. Your allegience to John Calvin has rendered you unable to properly discern truth from the scriptures.

    Nonsense. Foolishness

    Its invincibly plain that you have a blind alligience to Calvin. You are not the only one, there are others. Your truth authority is John Calvin, not the scriptures.

    THAT is invincibly plain

    AiC
     
    #59 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Dont know that he is "blindly" following Calvin, think he is wedded to a "high end: take on Calvinism, that God is cause/determinite in all things...

    Some from te Arminian side is wedded to "free will" so much that its almost as if God sitting it out on sidelines hoping and praying that one of us make that decision to follow Christ!
     
    #60 JesusFan, May 25, 2011
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