Featured False Teaching of Contemplative Prayer...

Allan,

Did you read and pay attention closely to what I said?

My point is there is nothing wrong with reading Scripture, prayer, and meditation on said Scripture.

I reject the mystical side.

Furthermore I believe your list a straw man of Piper at the least. Nothing in what Piper said supports a mystical side, in fact he rejects it.

What exactly is wrong with Scripture reading, prayer, and meditation on Scripture? Share how that is wrong in that it is what I support.

Allan, I think you're over-reacting and a little overly emotional at this time.

- Blessings

 

Piper:
So my answer is that meditation is a biblical reality. "Meditate on the law of the Lord day and night" (Psalm 1). Contemplation, I think, is just another way of talking about spiritually seeing the beauty of Christ in and through the word of God.

In 2 Corinthians 4 you have, "The god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Well, what's that? That's not with these physical eyes. That's with the eyes referred to in Ephesians 1:17-18 where Paul says, "May the eyes of your heart be enlightened to know what is your calling."

So there is a spiritual seeing, or what we would call contemplation. This is where, when you read your Bible, you pause and you see in and through the words to the reality with your heart, and you apprehend spiritual reality. And this gives rise to a kind of praying that is spiritual and authentic and personal and warm and strong.

So my answer is way "Yes" to the Reformed Puritan tradition of contemplative prayer, as I've just defined it, and of meditation.

I'm very ticked at seminary classes that think you have to mainly go to the mystical Catholic tradition in order to find this kind of depth and this kind of personal connection with the living God that is both rational and supra-rational and very mystical in its communion.

You don't have to embrace bad theology, namely Roman Catholic historic bad theology, in order to find amazing representatives of those who've known God at this level, contemplated God spiritually in the heart at this level, and have given rise to that kind of contemplation in wonderful praying.

A Piper critic:
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/john _pipers_contradictory_position.html#unique-entry-id-1229

John mac arthur;
You spoke this morning about prayer. You clearly spoke against the prosperity “name it and claim it” model, and alluded to some of the mystical elements within that. Can you speak a bit more to the contemplative spirituality and mysticism that is invading the church today?

It’s very dangerous, the spiritual formation. It’s a pagan approach. It’s more like Hinduism than Christianity. It’s content-less, the mantra prayers, it’s a form of Hindu expression. It’s the kind of mysticism that makes people think they can create reality by thinking it, by meditating on it, by focusing on it, claiming it, declaring it to be so.

So how would you respond to the idea that is taught by those who promote spiritual formation and contemplative prayer that “prayer is really a conversation with God”? The idea that we must remain still and quiet, waiting to hear back from Him?

Here’s the problem with that: God can’t answer. He’s spoken only in His Word, so it’s not a conversation.

GTY staff:
Your prayer life has a significant impact on your spiritual growth. Prayer submits your will to the Lord’s, it aligns your desires with His purposes, and it cements His truth in your heart. In the end, it’s much more than simply bringing your requests and concerns before the Lord.

Over the last several weeks here on the GTY blog, we’ve been weighing the biblical and practical merits of some popular methods of stimulating your spiritual growth, commonly referred to as spiritual formation. In particular, we looked at how to get the most from your study of God’s Word by comparing some modern patterns of spiritual formation to time-tested principles of Bible study and interpretation.

But if you’ve heard or read anything from proponents of spiritual formation, you know that prayer figures heavily in their methodology. In fact, it was several questions about a specific method of prayer—contemplative prayer—that prompted this blog series in the first place.

Contemplative prayer isn’t really prayer at all—at least in an active sense. It’s essentially a form of passive meditation. Usually it involves repeating a few words from a verse of Scripture, a spiritual phrase, or a name for God, all the while anticipating some special guidance, insight, or a word from the Lord.

The model for contemplative prayer isn’t found in Scripture. It’s a hybrid of rituals adopted from the Catholic church and Eastern mysticism. And most critical, it lacks a mechanism to differentiate between the voice of the Lord and your own emotions and imagination.

Make no mistake—God has spoken, once and for all, through His Word. You don’t need to sequester yourself in solitude or practice some mystical incantation to receive His truth and grow spiritually. You simply need to submit yourself to His will as revealed in Scripture.

Any pattern for prayer that uses your emotions or imagination as a receptor for God’s revelation is an invitation for theological error and spiritual confusion to take root in your life.

Instead of trying to manufacture some momentary, mystical experience with God, believers must cling to the unchangeable truth of His Word. Rather than searching for subjective personal insight, we need to reinforce our knowledge of Scripture and our dependence on the Lord through a consistent, biblical prayer life.

Tomorrow we’ll look at a key figure in Scripture—a true prayer warrior, whose faithful prayer life should be a model for our own.

For now, we want to hear from you. What prayer methods have you used in the past? Have you been encouraged to try contemplative prayer? What were the results?

GTY Staff

 

It is the Spirit who opens our eyes to the Word and truth; 1 Corinthians 2. As some have wisely stated 'The Word doesn't yield its gems to the slothful'.

Paul told Timothy to consider his words, 2 Tim. 2:7 which means to exercise his mind on it.

Meditation upon the Word is spoken of in the Psalms.

David said 'Open my eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of your Law.' Psalm 119:18.

 

Icon,

Is Piper supporting the mystical side?

 

Allan,

'Ignorance is bliss?' 'Someone like yourself?'

Yes, you're a bit twisted (emotional) right now.

Could you point me to where I stated you haven't researched it? I've not stated such within this thread. Use facts not emotional and baseless conclusions.

I need to come up with data that they aren't? You haven't proven they are in on the mystical side of CP. There is no evidence they aren't in it? Um. Guess what, you alluded that they are, and the burden of proof lies upon you, not upon me. You've offered no proof that Piper involves himself in a shaman like CP. In fact his testimony refutes that altogether.

I'm totally aware of CP and have been long before you posted on it. So is Piper. He's not endorsing the so-called 'Shaman' style. Nothing in what he said supports that. To use him as such is a straw man.

Back to my 'facts'. What exactly is wrong with Scripture reading, prayer and meditation on it?

And no, Piper is not speaking on the type of CP nor is he endorsing the type both you and I reject.

- Blessings

 

Allan,

I'm aware of the CP definition. I gave the Biblical definition.

 

Allan,

You're still emotional with your using of names. I was always taught 1) That in itself is childish; 2) When used in a debate, the one doing so has lost. But that's OK I've seen it before. Use all the names you wish to use. :wavey:

The highlighted portion is my exact point. Thus I've not failed the test.

There is no evidence Piper does this in the manner of CP as you so desire to prove. In fact you've failed to prove this and ask me to prove he doesn't do it. LOL. Now why would you ask me to prove he doesn't? Well, because you've failed to prove he does!

Instead of this he's simply endorsing the highlighted. I think you need to come up with clear evidence Piper has done this according to a Shaman style.

Do some more research perhaps?

Oh, and by the way, show with facts my argument is 'childish'. Thanks.

- Blessings

 

Here from the OP is what i see so far as the most dangerous element:

hearing Piper in the small sample...i think he kept both ideas open....

1]Note,not The Word of God (Bible)

2]but the word you heard from God

You two Allan,and P4t i think are talking past each other and getting heated.

If it was a discussion of how to pray and meditate on the written word....we would all be supportive as in psalm 1 as previously mentioned.

If it in any way is leaving the door open to the "mystical"...i would see that as dangerous.....
that is why i offered some other quotes from the grace to you guys.:type:

I would rather error on the side of caution...and I would like to see main speakers and teachers send a clear signal...not leave the door open .....

if some of these main teachers can sort it out, what of those who attempt to follow their teaching, usually they do not rise above the level of the teacher...but fall below to some degree:
40 A disciple is no better than his master; he will be fully perfect if he is as his master is.

 

That is not a quote of John Piper. It's a quote of Allan (unless he hasn't given credit to a person). Thus to conclude as you have on Piper and make a verdict as if he has is a misnomer because that doesn't appear to be from Piper. Anyhow he speaks more of a puritan contemplation, but for me I'd leave 'CP' completely out in comparison so as not to confuse anyone. It's shameful that a good word has become corrupted, yet I could fault him in that he perhaps should leave CP out of it and call it something else. BTW what is the 'other side' that you say is left open other than the one being mystical CP?

Actually the heat is solely on Allan with the name calling which was clearly seen. There is no heat here. He really needs to take a breather. What I saw is someone shocked about what he thought was another attacking his 'research' as if it was so bullet proof 'how dare you!' reaction. That never happened as far as attacking his research. He got overly sensitive there and saw stars. You both should go back and read my posts again. Nothing I offered in them attacked but attempted to convey again and again to an emotional Allan what was plain and the exact same thing he concluded. When one is angry they can't see what the other is saying, so he went attack mode after my first post with childish language. Go back and check for yourself. As far as talking past one another, I see that on Allans part as I've said the same thing he concluded, and if he slowed down and didn't kneejerk react he would've seen what I was saying the first time. He probably could do the same in listening to Piper and not go ballistic. Scripture reading, prayer, meditation minus mysticism is the conclusion I came to and he finally came to. After the mud is dry it comes off easier, so I hope he can clean up when he's not upset. :thumbs:

I agree with gty yet using Mac doesn't prove anything about Piper.

I highly doubt Piper practices CP to the order of the OP. I got what Piper meant and didn't see a demon under every rock. Also I've read some of Piper. Not a gigantic fan of his but I believe he loves the Lord and very passionate about Him.

- Blessings

 

Icon,

Thanks for that clarifying post.

I personally am tired of seeing people dragged through the mud and accused of this, that, and the other based on hearsay. We should be above that and not just throw out names without verifying that said individuals did, in fact state support for or that we have proof that they practiced of the error du jour.

 

Am I off base here, or should we all be reading the Word and then asking Jesus to speak to us? Is the Holy Spirit alive and powerful to minister to us in this way, or isn't he? It's called communing with God, folks, and something we cold Baptists need to reinvigorate themselves in.

 

Sure there is.

For instance, Willard (whom I have followed very closely for more than a decade) advocated contemplation on scripture - not just a word or collection of words. He stressed the memorization of whole passages of scripture and then carefully meditating (focusing one's mind upon) on the meaning and application of scripture in a very different way than is described here.

Of course that doesn't stop some of his critics from lumping him in with those who practice simple meditation on one or two word mantras.

 

Not off base at all, but absolutely in the middle of the path of historic Christianity.

There are those who believe that God ONLY speaks through scripture - that we have a faith that is like the Muslims where Allah only speaks through the Koran. However, we serve a living God who is still speaking and leading through both scripture and through specific guidance by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

:thumbsup:

I have read Dallas Willard. He would no more support what Allen defines as contemplative praying than Allan would.

 

You need to read the link provided. Of course we are to read the Word, and He does speak to us through His word and our circumstances...but He is not a genie we summon using a magical keyword or phrase after 'emptying our minds'...which is an occultic practice. I highly doubt Beth Moore received a vision the RCC is part of the true church using contemplative prayer.