Fears

As an ex-catholic I agree 100% with Dr Bob's last post.

Perhaps it's only those of us who have been catholics and still have family members and friends within the RC church who know what todays catholics truly believe. They might say they believe in faith alone but I don't see any evidence of it.

 

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. )

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Are we justified by faith in Christ? You betcha!
Do Catholics have faith in Christ to salvation? You betcha!

Are we justified by works done in love? You betcha!

Why? The B-I-B-L-E tells me so. You can't seperate works from faith. If you believe in a Christ that doesn't care if you continue living carnally, you don't believe in the Christ of the Bible. Works and faith cannot be seperated. Period. Scripture doesn't allow for it.

If we have faith in Christ, we must have faith in all that he said. We must have faith in what the scriptures tells us. And they do not look favorably on lukewarm Christians or Christians living in sin. It says that they will be spewed out of the mouth of Christ. That they will be cut off and cast into the pit. Harsh words, symbolic or not.

There is of course no "rule book" on how many good works we must do. We can't be saved by the works of the law, but none the less if we live in sin, if we reject the grace of God, and if we have no good works, we are not saved.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

No knowledgble Catholic would say that they believe in "faith alone"- as in "I can have faith and continue to live by the flesh"

 

Bro Adam,

I checked out your website. Very interesting but could you tell me exactly what you hope to achieve? Maybe you could PM me rather than taking this thread off on a tangent. Thanks.

 

It's a bit off for a Baptist to be defending Christian beliefs to a Baptist defending Catholocism, don't you think?
I'm sure you're aware of the truth, but for those that aren't here goes.


Your Question 1. Show me where it says in the Bible that Once Saved Always Saved.

The Answer: EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

EPH 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The promise is eternal life. If it's not eternal then that is a lie.
Christ died ONCE for sinners, not over and over.
His death covered your sins from past, present, AND future.

JN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

JN 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

No man includes you too. Give is active and present. It isn't past.

Salvation is not of man. Not even one little bit. Not even 1/10th of one percent. Your hope is not 90% in Christ and 10% in your ability to please him.
In other words, salvation doesn't start with the cross, the cross finished it.
Interesting verse might fit in here: LK 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Your Question 2. Works: Do we not need to work out our salvation as in running a race?

The Answer: No, we are to work it out with fear and trembling. It is not to earn salvation or keep it. We have it. "Work out your salvation". Not work toward salvation. Live out your Christian life. Be worthy of your calling.
Note that he is speaking to Christians in this verse, not unsaved who need to "work" toward their salvation.
PHIL 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

PHIL 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Your Question 3. False religion: Can you prove it? I mean, really? Can you? You have spewed many accusations, butI have yet to see anyone prove it. Would you call Methodist a false religion? Would you call Christian Reformed a false religion? Would you call 7th day Adventist a false religion?

The Answer: ROM 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

ROM 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1TIM 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Salvation isn't through a church or dependant on a church or a church's leadership.
Mediation/intercession between man and God is through CHRIST ALONE.


ROM 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Gina

 

Here's a book that I picked up yesterday that gives a good plain-language overview of Catholicism and all of the other types of "legitimate" (no JWs and the like) Christian flavors out there:

The Unauthorized Guide to Choosing a Church

After reading it, I would say that I do not fear Catholics.

I think they sincerely believe that they are following the truth faith even though they wrap it around and and around and smother it under miles and miles of "commentary" and "interpreation" with the intentions of making it clearer in reception.

Perhaps their highly ornate ecclesiastical system exists as a stage through which God will lead them to His truth as it should get received.

On a good note, I believe that Pope John Paul sincerely wants to spread the faith for the sincere good and salvation of all. I just disagree with his method, style, and authority to exercise it in such a hegemonic way.

 

Gina,

Thank you for your posts. They are representative of an entire line of thought.

"It's a bit off for a Baptist to be defending Christian beliefs to a Baptist defending Catholocism, don't you think? "

As much as it is off for me to defend correct history against false history. If you told me Adolf Hitler never lived, I would be obligated to correct you. If you told me Buddhists worship Allah, I would be obligated to correct you, and likewise, if you were to tell me (for example) Catholics worship Mary, I would be obligated to correct you. I don't believe people like Jack Chick work for the Kingdom of God, and I don't believe spreading falsehoods (in ignorance or not) about others works towards the kingdom. If you're going to fight against Catholicism, first learn what it is. I have many serious issues with Catholicism- but I also understand many lies are spread from the tongues of well meaning non Catholic Christians about Catholics. The Bible forbids false witness.

"I'm sure you're aware of the truth, but for those that aren't here goes."

Always be sure that scripture is shaping your doctrine, and that your doctine is not shaping scripture. This is a fatal mistake many Christians make such as the SDA belief that there is no Trinity.

We each hold to what we believe is truth, but it may not necessarily be Truth. Certainly, we are not infallible or inerrant as is our scriptures.

"The Answer: EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

EPH 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The promise is eternal life. If it's not eternal then that is a lie.
Christ died ONCE for sinners, not over and over.
His death covered your sins from past, present, AND future."

The key words that sticks out to me in this verse is "earnest" and "until". You may already be aware, but the Bible states in several verses that our salvation is past, present, and future. We "have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved".

"JN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

JN 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Amen. Come Lord Jesus. Unfortunately, these verses do not say in anyway that like the prodigal son, we cannot leave the Father's House. This doesn't say anything about us not being able to walk away from grace, or reject grace after our salvation. However, when we are in a state of grace, nothing, not angels or man, can seperate us from God. He is omnipotent.

"Salvation is not of man. Not even one little bit. Not even 1/10th of one percent. Your hope is not 90% in Christ and 10% in your ability to please him."

The judicial act of our redemption was apart from any mans ability to participate. Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross is of God alone. However, I believe Baptists would agree that it is a non-Christians choice to "accept Christ as their personal Savior" or likewise "reject Christ" and thus reject saving grace.

"In other words, salvation doesn't start with the cross, the cross finished it.
Interesting verse might fit in here: LK 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

I'm not sure how your trying to apply this verse here, but you are correct that the act that allows for our salvation with Christ is finished on the cross. If all Christians were either saved or unsaved at the point in time when Christ breathed his last, then there would be no need to evanglize today.

"PHIL 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

PHIL 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

I like your example of obedience. It however doesn't help for your argument of OSAS.

1 Corinthians 9
23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

"The Answer: ROM 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

ROM 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1TIM 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

All these verses are fine and good, and any knowledgable Catholic would agree with them. However none of them say that we are saved by faith alone. Only James says that we are not saved by faith alone.

I also think an error you may be making here is to use these verses exclusively and ignoring other verses that may put them into context. Such verses that tell us perseverance, work, love, and hope, are needs in a Christians life.


Salvation isn't through a church or dependant on a church or a church's leadership.
Mediation/intercession between man and God is through CHRIST ALONE.

Christ is our mediator between the Father and us. However Paul is ernest that we should intercess for each other- that is pray for each other. Paul also tells us that to be saved is to enter into a new covenant- that is we are part of the body of Christ, the church.

God Bless

 

double post

 

[QUOTEAre we justified by faith in Christ? You betcha!
Do Catholics have faith in Christ to salvation? You betcha!
[/QUOTE]

Adam, why are you not Roman Catholic? Just curious.

 

Thank you for asking Psalm.

Because I do not believe in a good deal of major tenants of the faith. I disagree with the idea of scapulars, I think the emphasis on Mary is too much, though I know they don't worship her. I'm not so sure about the purification process that happens between death and heaven. I also don't agree with their interpertation of communion. I strongly disagree with infant baptism (that's the reason I'm not Lutheran).

I still believe in all the Baptist Disctinctives and can affirm my church constitution.

I am however seeing distinct problems with the idea of OSAS, and even, to some extent, Sole Fida (in regards that one can live carnally and still be a Christian).

Also, someone asked me what I hope to accomplish out of my website- that is, why should we take the time to understand one and another. I believe that with knowledge (which the proverbs places importance in), we can be better equiped to serve and love each other. One might say "Catholicism is false, so what does it matter if I don't have all their beliefs correct"- I say, because wisdom is always profitable. That, and I really do believe it is wrong to spread false witness- even if we are spreading false witness about Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, or a Tibetian tribe.

Christ's said the second greatest commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. By openly taking the time to learn about our non-Baptists neighbors, we help accomplish this.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

Sadly, we do not allow non Baptist posting in a restricted thread. If you persist, you will lose your posting privileges on the BB totally.

[ July 20, 2003, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

[ July 20, 2003, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

Adam: As much as it is off for me to defend correct history against false history. If you told me Adolf Hitler never lived, I would be obligated to correct you. If you told me Buddhists worship Allah, I would be obligated to correct you, and likewise, if you were to tell me (for example) Catholics worship Mary, I would be obligated to correct you. I don't believe people like Jack Chick work for the Kingdom of God, and I don't believe spreading falsehoods (in ignorance or not) about others works towards the kingdom. If you're going to fight against Catholicism, first learn what it is. I have many serious issues with Catholicism- but I also understand many lies are spread from the tongues of well meaning non Catholic Christians about Catholics. The Bible forbids false witness.

Gina: ROFL! You and yours are starting the topics dear, not me. You're seeing enemies where there are none.

Adam: Always be sure that scripture is shaping your doctrine, and that your doctine is not shaping scripture. This is a fatal mistake many Christians make such as the SDA belief that there is no Trinity.

Gina: I'm not sure where that fit into anything, but thanks for the advice.

Adam: The key words that sticks out to me in this verse is "earnest" and "until". You may already be aware, but the Bible states in several verses that our salvation is past, present, and future. We "have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved".

Gina: Read this: http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/DarbysSynopsisofNewTestament/dby.cgi?book=eph&chapter=1#

Adam: "JN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

JN 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Amen. Come Lord Jesus. Unfortunately, these verses do not say in anyway that like the prodigal son, we cannot leave the Father's House. This doesn't say anything about us not being able to walk away from grace, or reject grace after our salvation. However, when we are in a state of grace, nothing, not angels or man, can seperate us from God. He is omnipotent.

Gina: It says no man. You are a man.
God alone saves. Man doesn't have the power to change God's plan or unforgive after it's been granted.

Adam: The judicial act of our redemption was apart from any mans ability to participate. Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross is of God alone. However, I believe Baptists would agree that it is a non-Christians choice to "accept Christ as their personal Savior" or likewise "reject Christ" and thus reject saving grace.

Gina: I don't agree completely that it is their choice in the sense you most likely mean it, but I do agree it's their responsibility. Whatever the case, how are you fitting this into the conversation?


Adam: I'm not sure how your trying to apply this verse here, but you are correct that the act that allows for our salvation with Christ is finished on the cross. If all Christians were either saved or unsaved at the point in time when Christ breathed his last, then there would be no need to evanglize today.

Gina: More than that, we were saved from before time. Yes, there is a need to evangelize and tell people of the work Jesus has done. It says so right there in your bible.

Adam: "PHIL 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

PHIL 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

I like your example of obedience. It however doesn't help for your argument of OSAS.

Gina: AD brought up the verse. I was responding. Go read again.

Adam: 1 Corinthians 9
23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

Gina: 1COR 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1COR 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

1COR 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible

Define crown.
I urge you to look into the beliefs on the perseverance of the saints.

Adam: "The Answer: ROM 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

ROM 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1TIM 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

All these verses are fine and good, and any knowledgable Catholic would agree with them. However none of them say that we are saved by faith alone. Only James says that we are not saved by faith alone.

Gina: What else does it take Adam? Please explain why "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is not true.
Catholics believe that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Christ Jesus? GREAT! I was mistaken. I thought Mary was viewed as an intercessor, and those in authority in the church. Shows how much I know? I was wrong and they don't believe that, right? They realize that Jesus is the one and only high priest and understand that there is no longer a need for a priest to intercede in matters of forgiveness for us? Cool. That's what I get for watching movies.

Adam: I also think an error you may be making here is to use these verses exclusively and ignoring other verses that may put them into context. Such verses that tell us perseverance, work, love, and hope, are needs in a Christians life.

Gina: They are needs for what in the Christian life? Needs to evidence salvation, or needs to gain salvation? When IS a person's salvation decided? What are the rules here? We just don't know if we perservered enough until we stand before God? Or do we just follow the guidelines put out by men and thereby know we are saved as long as we adhere to them?


Adam: Christ is our mediator between the Father and us. However Paul is ernest that we should intercess for each other- that is pray for each other. Paul also tells us that to be saved is to enter into a new covenant- that is we are part of the body of Christ, the church.

Gina: Salvation is to be part of the church. Really? Scripture please.

In addition, I'd like you to ask you your opinion on the LDS church. Give a few key examples of what is wrong with their doctrine.

 

Just wanted to apologize for posting here.

Grant

[ July 20, 2003, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

Dr. Bob Griffin:
Chuck Colson has to say that (his wife is a practicing Catholic).

Thanks Dr. Bob
I was wondering why in the world he was involved with E.C.T., now I see.
I must whole-heartedly agree with Dr. Bob's and Gina's postings here. Anyone saying that Catholics are okay as they are do them a grave (and eternal) injustice.
As I told a J.W., who was a former co-worker, after we had, "done battle" for the last time I said to him: "I would be the worst person that ever walked this earth if I told you anything other than what I am going to tell you now. If you go on, believing what you do now, it is not going to be well with you." I feel I was correct in saying that. Sadly, he gave out a little chuckle and said, "Don't worry about me, I'll be quite allright." Most all Mormons, JW's AND Catholics are NOT going to be OKAY folks, they have departed from THE faith.
Also, please consider that all of these cults, that I know of, go against the clear teaching of scripture and say you can lose your salvation. Sure, it is a way to control them.

 

Bro. Adam: I got saved by faith alone. There was no faith + anything.

I do good works because I AM saved. Not to try and GET saved or to STAY saved.

Your comments, as a Baptist, greatly concern me. I was raised Catholic and I still have family members in the RCC. I am trying to witness to them and I am surely glad they can't read your posts. You would give them justification for what they believe...and it is sending them to Hell.


Sue

 

"Catholics believe that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Christ Jesus? GREAT! I was mistaken. I thought Mary was viewed as an intercessor, and those in authority in the church. Shows how much I know? I was wrong and they don't believe that, right? They realize that Jesus is the one and only high priest and understand that there is no longer a need for a priest to intercede in matters of forgiveness for us? Cool. That's what I get for watching movies."

Yeah, Hollywood isn't too cool about representing any of our faiths. Look at the Apostle with Robert Duvall as an example. He completely approved of the Catholic priests work.

However, there is a difference between mediation and intercession as I pointed out. When your friends pray for you, they don't take the place of Christ, and when you confess your sins to your pastor, he doesn't take God's place. Hey look at that- myth despelled! All right!

"I urge you to look into the beliefs on the perseverance of the saints."

"The believe only for a time and fall away"

"The person who acts in righteousness is righteous"

"And let perserverance be perfect so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven."

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm"

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm."

"When IS a person's salvation decided?"

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

"Salvation is to be part of the church. Really? Scripture please"

Ephesians 5

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

When we are saved (i.e. have faith in Christ unto our salvation) we become part of the Church, the body of Christ. Do you disagree with this?

I will answer your question on the LDS church in a new thread.

 

Hi I am Blessed,

No appeals to emotion okay? Dr. Bob and webmaster love to do that, but we are to trust our heads more often than our hearts. Our feelings have a way of getting us in trouble- I know!

You say you were saved by faith alone- I say that you were saved by faith, that is, placing your trust in Jesus Christ because of what he did for you. And I think its awesome that your a part of God's family. I can garuntee you that you were entertaining angels when you did- that's what scripture tells us at least.

Here is one thing I have learned though from a rather large group of Catholics I have talked to- that the past 25 years or so "it seems like the vatican has been trying to make a goal of pushing out as many ignorant Catholics of their faith as they can". There is now a strong push, thankfully, in the other direction. When any person is commiting adultery and thinks it's okay- something is wrong! Obviously, that isn't a teaching of the Catholic church or any other church. The Catholics you have run into may very well have been ignorant of their faith. In fact- I'll even grant you they may have been worshipping Mary, or committing idolatry in some other way. BUT- those Catholics (and there are a lot of them) that I have talked to that know their faith VERY well, every last one of them has faith in Christ for their salvation. Not one of them has said we're going to get one more rung up the ladder by works, but it is our faith in Christ that re-establishes our relationship with God. It's mainly the methods that we disagree on.

Let me stop a second to share a story. When I was in 8th grade I rode the bus everyday to school for about 45 minutes and I met a Baptist on it. This kid was nuts. Now I had already been told to steer clear of Baptists (I was a Lutheran), but holy smokes, this kid belonged in a loony bin. He followed me all around the bus and wouldn't leave me alone. He told me that reality wasn't real and that I didn't exist. He told me that I could try to step on the pavement outside the bus but that didn't exist either. After my encounter with him and several other "baptists" it took my now best friend a good year to get me to realize that not all Baptists are fruitcakes.

I challange you to go over to the other religion section and meet Kathryn, Carson, Ray, CC, and several of the other Catholics. Go with an open mind. I don't mean embrace what they say, I just mean let your defensive mechanisms down for a while and hear about their stories and where they are coming from. These are tried and true Catholics who know what they are talking about.

Before I took the time to learn about them and other Catholics, I would have been likely to be right there with Dr. Bob and Co. and tear someone like me to shreads. Time and wisdom have a funny way of changing things.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam