finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

I think that this answer underscores the need of the "eternal torment" supporter to come up with answers that stretch credulity to the breaking point. Since, by HBSMN's own argument, the people were not burned to ashes, we are expected to believe that God's warning to the people of the world, as issued by Peter in 2 Peter in 2 Peter 2:6 is the following:

"The punishment of the ungodly involves the destruction of their buildings, highways, and movie theaters, with no human beings burned to ashes by this same process"

Now let's be clear - HBSMN's position does not allow him (her?) to allow for people to be in the buildings or on the roads. Why? Obviously, he would have to conclude that these people are burned to ashes - a position he cannot allow.

So we have this bizarre picture of God visiting punishment on the ungodly by burning up their physical infrastructure.

Where are the ungodly when all this happens?

 

I admit I haven't read every single post on this subject, but I have to wonder why the destruction of S & G is being compared to eternal punishement?? Eternal punishment in the lake of fire takes place after the great white throne judgment. The judgment of S & G was an earthly judgment just as the flood. All the people that 'burned up' in S & G will still have to face Christ for eternal judgment and will then be sent to the lake of fire where there is no relief and they will burn forever and ever. Two different judgments.

 

It seems that you are saying that the consequence of the sin is to be burned up - and I could not agree with you more.

The challenge that 2 Peter 2:6 presents to the "eternal torment" supporter is that it makes clear that in the judgement to come, the ungodly will be turned into ashes.

I think that you are making the best possible argument to deal with a verse that so clearly states that reduction to ashes is an example of the coming judgement. You agree that people in S&G were burned to nothing. And you claim that this was the "consequence of sin".

That would be a good answer if it were not for the inconvenient fact that that the text says that the fate of S&G is an example of what will happen to the ungodly. I take the text at its word and conclude that reduction to ashes is indeed what will happen to the ungodly.

Since the text also says that this story is an example of what will happen to the ungodly, I would think that you are logically forced to conclude that the ungodly will be burned to ashes at least in some sense.

I can only think of 2 ways that I would respond if I were to take your "eternal torment" position just for the sake of argument.

1. I would claim that the text is not talking about the ultimate fate of the unredeemed but is really only dealing with the consequences of sin in the here and now.

2. I would claim that the text is talking about what will happen to the bodies of the ungodly, since the eternal torment position obviously fails if one concedes that the fate of the unredeemed is to be burned to ashes in the totality of their being.

The problem with (1) is that being burned away to nothing is hard to see in any light other than an "ultimate and final punishment" sense.

The problem with (2) is that it makes the example seem misleading as an example since you believe the real and substantive punishment for sin is eternal torment. Why would Peter be warning of destruction of the body and not addressing the more substantial issue of the fate of the soul which, on your view, is eternal torment? His statement would then be like the givernment putting warnings on cigarette packages warning that consequence of smoking is offensive breath when the real consequence of substance is heart disease and cancer.

 

But both the 2 Peter 2:6 and the Jude 7 text hold the burning of S&G as an example of something - what will happen to the ungodly. I think the most natural conclusion to draw is that this is an attempt by the writer to connect the historical S&G event with the lake of fire judgement.

 

I don't see how you get that. 2 Peter is speaking of God's judgement towards people living on earth as an example to those who would follow after them.

6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Their final judgement has not occured yet. The destruction of S & G was not their final judgement. It is yet to come.
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

Their punishment in the day of judgement will be eternal fire.

 

No, that is hardly what I am saying at all. Everything must be taken in its context. As it says in Romans 6:23:
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
--Sin has its consequences, both on earth and in eternity.
1Pet.2:6 is an example of the earthly consequences of the sin of homosexuality, in that time and age in history for those people of those cities. It was an example of how God judges sin. But he does not judge the same sin the same way every time.
The consequence of the sin of drunk driving may be a suspended licence, or a dead pedestrian, or even a dead driver or at least one that ends up a parapalegic or even worse. There is a consequence to sin. God doesn't always judge it the same way.
The consequence for the sin of stealing in Saudia Arabia is having your hand cut off.
Sin always has its consequences. But the ultimate consequence is death, not just physical death but eternal death; eternal separation from God in a place called Hell.

It is true that that one verse alone does not teach that. It refers to the historical even in Genesis 19 when the cities and the inhabitants were destroyed by fire. But that account, as well as 1Pet.2:6 is not referring to the soul or the spirit of man. It is simply referring to the physical side of the city (cities) that were burnt to ashes. Learn to take every passage in the context in which it is written. Does it say eternal torment in 1Pet.2:6? No it does not. Don't read into a passage that which is not written there. Eventually Peter will get to the subject of eternal punishment, but it is not in verse 6.
Your "challenge" implies your position that the ungodly does not have a soul or spirit. Am I correct. If so, this discussion has no further merit. We are talking past each other. The bodies may indeed be burned to ashes just like the Bible says they are. But the spirits of those bodies live on forever in a place called Hell.

It was the consequence for THEIR sin, not for ours, and not for anyone elses. It was a historical event, never to be repeated again in history.
Their bodies were burned to ashes; not their spirits. Their spirits are immortal and cannot be destroyed. They will live on forever either in hell or in heaven, depending on whether they have believed in Christ (or in Jehovah), as the case may have been.

The key wird is "example." It is an example. It is an example and only an example. It is NOT the one and only consequence that God is going to afflict on the ungodly.
With Annanias and Sapphira--he took their lives.
Judas Iscariot he allowed to go out and hang himself.
To Pharaoh he sent Ten Plagues on the land of Egypt, the last one killing the firstborn of every male in Egypt.
The judgement for sin is different depending on the circumstances and the event and people involved. No matter what the spirit lives on forever in heaven or in hell depending on their rejection or acceptance of Jesus Christ.

That is not true. If it were true then why didn't God destroy those about 1,000 years earlier with burning them to ashes instead of sending them a world-wide flood. Nowhere does the Bible say or teach that the punsihment of the wicked is that they will be turned to ashes. God uses different punishments for different events. The one punishment that remans constant for the ungodly is the Lake of Fire where they (in their resurrection bodies) will be cast into and their languish forever and ever being tormented day and night. The Scripture is very explicit on that point.

By reading your posts I believe you are looking at the Scriptures through secular eyes, and thus are blinded to spiritual truth. There is consequently a rejection of what God is teaching through his Word.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

--If you are speaking only of 1Pet.2:6, #1 is at least close to being correct. It may not be dealing with the here and now; but it was dealing with the here and now of the time it was written in, and the fire was not eternal. It dealt with the consequences of the sins of the people at that time--the sins of S&M, and those in the cities nearby.

As for your #2 position it is totally untenable. You speak of the "totality of the bodies," without believing in the existence of soul or spirit, and thus the eternal punishment of the wicked makes no sense to you. Even if the Bible teaches it, your position must refute it, because it would not make sense to you if you reject the belief in the soul or spirit.

Many people are burned to ashes, and have been all throughout history by the RCC. Don't worry about it. God will still raise them from the dead at the resurrection when their glorified bodies will join with their spirits which are immortal.

His warning is like cancer and heart disease. Read the rest of the chapter, and read it closely. Find out what the consequences of sin is for all the false prophets that Peter mentions. Look at the descriptive phrases by which he describes them. Read the chapter carefully, and get a good idea of the consequence of sin as it applies to all of these false teachers, and have a good understanding of what that concept means. God judges sin. There is a consequence for sin.

 

After 31 pages, I feel that this thread has run its course. Therefore, it is now closed.