FIVE POINT ARMINIAN

I was shocked to read that as well. It sounds very dangerous too me. I am thankful that Christ was my sufficient sacrifice. Christ said He was the only way, the only truth and the only life, to suggest that I must do somthing as well to be saved is an insult to this truth.

 

I was shocked to read that as well. It sounds very dangerous too me. I am thankful that Christ was my sufficient sacrifice. Christ said He was the only way, the only truth and the only life, to suggest that I must do somthing as well to be saved is an insult to this truth. </font>[/QUOTE]Now we're getting down to the "MEAT OF THE WORD", Hope ya'll don't "CHOKE" on it.

Whether you believe in Jesus or not is a "CHOICE", YOU MAKE and you will be "JUDGED" on that "CHOICE", "Belief" will saved, "Unbelief" will condemn,

and "YOU" have to be "GUILTY" of the charge, not God.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus had to die to pay the "wages of sin", because God "NEVER" forgive sin.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And what's the "wages of sin"???

Jesus, in the garden prayed, "IF IT'S POSSIBLE" change the law, find another way for me to pay for sin so I don't have to die, "LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME".

But God wouldn't change the "LAW of death for sin" even for Jesus, he had to pay the "PRICE" of our sin, "DEATH".

If God forgive one sin without it's wages being paid,DEATH, then Jesus die for nothing.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (the requirments of the law, death for sin

If anyone owes for so much as "ONE SIN" when Judged, they'll go to "HELL".

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

YOUR FAITH in Jesus means you're no longer UNDER THE LAW of "death for sin".

But, "YOUR FAITH" also requires "YOUR WILLINGNESS" to "Crucify the old man". (sacrifice)

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If any goes to Hell, it will be because of "THEIR UNBELIEF", precisely what scripture says they will be condemned for, not Predestination.

I don't know what is being taught in your church, but evidently, you're not listening or they're not teaching,

I'll tell you what's an "INSULT TO THE TRUTH", that's adding "leaven" to it.

1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

[ October 14, 2005, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

Me4Him,

Man is judged for unbelief, but this is only further condemns him, since man ALREADY is condemned to hell. Scripture is clear on that. If man was not all ready dead in sins and condemned to hell, then why on earth did Christ even have to die?

Sin has been a problem since man fell, the only solution to that problem is Christ (the only way the only truth and the only life). People go to hell because they are sinners, and yes many do not believe which further condemns them.

If people are sent to hell because of there unbelief, then tell me "What about those who never hear the Gospel and therefore can never believe or disbelieve, do they go to heaven because they never disbelieved?" You need to study the Scriptures without your preconcieved notions, man is sent to hell because he is a sinner, period.

 

Sorry Me4Him.....

Belief is not the result of a choice..... We make choices based on what we believe.

And that belief is given to you of God if you indeed have it.....

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
KJV

 

quote:
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Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, but there is another "SACRIFICE" that must be made before his sacrifice will cover the person, and that is the person must be "WILLING" to sacrifice the "OLD MAN" of Flesh if He wants Jesus's salvation.
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There is NO "other ATONING Sacrifice" that is needed but Christs. The sacrifice above is simply "personnal sacrifice" the VERY sacrifice Christ speaks of in Matt 10 --

I realize it would be an easy temptation to simply ignore the Matt 10 intent of Me4Him and jump all over that statement "AS IF" it was meant to claim that there is "another Atoning Sacrifice" needed -- but honestly that would not accomplish much.

In Christ,

Bob

 

THE RESULT of that CHOICE to believe - is SALVATION according TO the text. (see the text?)

TomMann said Belief is not the result of a choice

That is a pefefect illustration of the difference between Calivnism and the Bible.

In the Bible the Gospel teaching about "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM" means whosoever CHOOSES to believe - and chooses to walk in faith.

To some Calvinists it means "whosoever happens to have red hair". They see it as a genetic ATTRIBUTE that a person HAS rather than DOES.

So when someone believes in their company or believes in the loyalty of their friends etc - for a calvinist is that just "genetics"???

If not then why in the world do they think that BELIEVING is NOT a choice??!! What kind of "BELIEVING" grows in their DNA?


At one level BELIEVING something to be true - is NOT a genetic fact leading to a decision to follow. For example -- the DEVILS "Believe and tremble". They believe FACT because of the irrefutable evidence that they KNOW it to be true - apparently they do not choose to tell themselves a "story" about everything that is true.

But in the context of the Gospel BELIEF is ALWAYS a choice NEVER a fact of DNA.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Do I remember that you are a Seventh Day Adventist. Is this correct.

The interesting observation of mine is that you are more Scriptural than Calvinists who think they have correct exegesis of His Word. It is, I am sure, criminal in the mind of God what people declare to be the truths coming from our Lord. Not all who say, 'Lord, Lord shall enter . . . '

You are blessed!

 

Sorry Me4Him.....

Belief is not the result of a choice..... We make choices based on what we believe.

And that belief is given to you of God if you indeed have it.....</font>[/QUOTE]God "CALLS", he doesn't "FORCE", whether the "SEED" find good/bad ground to grow depends on the person's acceptance/rejection of the "SEED".

"NO MAN" can't place the "BLAME ON GOD" for their unbelief because of "predestination", Jesus died for "ALL SIN" so "ALL", "MIGHT BE", (you do understand "might be", don't you?) "SAVED".

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God is no respector of person, a person who commits "ONE SIN" is as much a sinners as the one who commits 10 sins per minute.

And we all start out as sinners.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This "GARBAGE" that God is a respector of persons and didn't love "ALL SINNERS, EQUALLY", Jesus didn't die for "ALL SINNERS", is just that, "GARBAGE".

 

Let's go back in the OT and see what kind of "Sacrifices" were required there, they are "FORESHADOWS" of the NT.

Le 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Le 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Le 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

The "SCAPEGOAT" in this Feast represents "JESUS".

BUT would God have accepted the Scapegoat as an offering for sin IF the other "GOAT" had not been offered "FIRST"???

"GOAT" represents "SIN", on the Cross, Jesus's body because sin, a "GOAT", the "SCAPEGOAT" for our sins.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

But there's another "GOAT" that must be "KILLED" (offered) before God will accept the scapegoat Offering, that "GOAT" is our "BODY OF SIN".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

IF a person isn't "WILLING" to sacrifice their "GOAT", FIRST, then God won't accept the "SCAPEGOAT" on their behalf either.

As Bob pointed out "OUR GOAT" is "PERSONAL SINS", If I was the only sinner in the world, willing to sacrifice my "GOAT", Jesus would have died just to save "ME".

During the trib, people will be willing to "LITERALLY SACRIFICE" their "GOAT" to have the "SCAPEGOAT" cover their sins. (Jesus's salvation)

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,

and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Plain and simple, If you don't understand the "FEAST", you don't understand the Bible.

 

I guess I remain amazed. I have made relatively short and simple posts on this topic, sometimes just a verse or question. And I do not think I have encountered the venimous verbage resulting in all the time I have been a member. I am not saying that it hasn't happened.... I am just saying I have not encountered it.

So I don't accept that we choose what we believe. I happen to think that we believe makes sense to our finite little minds. And we make choices according to what we believe. That shouldn't shatter or recommend either the calvanist or arminian.

Why would anyone choose Jesus if they didn't believe he was King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Alpha and Omega?

Would it do any good to choose Jesus if you didn't believe he was King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Alpha and Omega?

If you knew that Jesus was was King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Alpha and Omega, what would cause you not to choose him?

I noticed when ya quoted my last post you left off the verse..... so I'll include it again...

I sometimes wonder why it is so upsetting to some to hear the word of God!!!!

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

TOM:

The "BIG LIE" being told people today is "come to the altar, confess you're a sinners, ask God to forgive you, and God will save you".

Do you know what's "WRONG" with this???

There's "NO JESUS" in that plan of salvation.

People are being told that "GOD FORGIVES SIN",

"HE DOESN"T".

Jesus will either pay for "ALL" your sins or the person will pay, if so much as one sin is chargable to them, but either way, "ALL SIN IS PAID BY DEATH".

One JOT/TITLE (of sin) will not pass, (go unpaid) until all the law requires is "PAID".

The Bible speaks of forgiveness, repenting, so much people have "LOST" the true meaning of what the scripture teach, I've heard people say: "I repented, God forgave me", but I always ask if there was a pool of blood on the floor when they finished, they ask "What do you mean"??

Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood is no remission. (of sin)

Just "confessing, repenting, asking" won't remit your sins, "SOMEBODY" must die to pay for every sin, and there's "NO EXCEPTION" to the law, even for Jesus.

That's what people aren't being told.

Jesus didn't die for the sins of the whole world, "FOR NOTHING", He came to do the "FATHER'S WILL" and the "FATHER'S WILL" was that "NONE SHOULD PERISH".

And "ANYONE" who claims otherwise is a "LAIR".

Is that plain enough???

Now do you understand why I call it "GARBAGE"??

 

1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness"

God forgives - but He does it through the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ that paid the debt that we owe.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. The scapegoat is never "offerred" as an sacrifice. It is "presented" before the Lord -- and this called "offerred" in the text but then it CONTINUES to be referred to as "The LIVE Goat" and is "RELEASED" into the wilderness AFTER the Lord's Goat is slain.

#2. The scapegoat is never called "A sin offering" or "a sacrifice".

#3. The scapegoat is selected -- but nothing happens to it in the ceremony until AFTER the Lord's goat is slain as "the sacrifice" as "the sin offering".

ONLY in the SIN OFFERING is there a substitute - is there an "atoning Sacrifice".

The Lord's Goat becomes SIN for us and is therefore the SIN OFFERING

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

When you read Lev 16 you will find that the Lord never says to have that goat killed. The goat is "sent away" alive into the wilderness.

By contrast the Lord's goat is "Killed" -- John calls Him "the Lamb of GOD that takes away the sins of the world" - The Lord's Goat is Christ.


Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have a brother who would argue on anything at the drop of a hat. If I said white was white, he would argue it was black just for arguing sake.... Dad said that the only thing he and Charlie ever agreed on was that if an elephant had wings in would be a @#$% big bird. You two really remind me of Charlie....

Don't let the truth stand between you and your convictions.....

 

At some point - the text of God's Word as it relates to the Atonement and the Sacrifice of Christ "just HAS to be of interest" to Calvinists.

I just know it!

 

#1. The scapegoat is never "offerred" as an sacrifice. It is "presented" before the Lord -- and this called "offerred" in the text but then it CONTINUES to be referred to as "The LIVE Goat" and is "RELEASED" into the wilderness AFTER the Lord's Goat is slain.

#2. The scapegoat is never called "A sin offering" or "a sacrifice".

#3. The scapegoat is selected -- but nothing happens to it in the ceremony until AFTER the Lord's goat is slain as "the sacrifice" as "the sin offering".

ONLY in the SIN OFFERING is there a substitute - is there an "atoning Sacrifice".

The Lord's Goat becomes SIN for us and is therefore the SIN OFFERING

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

When you read Lev 16 you will find that the Lord never says to have that goat killed. The goat is "sent away" alive into the wilderness.

By contrast the Lord's goat is "Killed" -- John calls Him "the Lamb of GOD that takes away the sins of the world" - The Lord's Goat is Christ.


Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

In Christ,

Bob [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]The "SCAPEGOAT" was released into the "wilderness" after the "SINS OF THE NATION" were placed "ON IT'S HEAD", A colored piece of cloth was tied on the temple column, when the scapegoat died, the cloth turned "WHITE", indicating their sins were "FORGIVEN".

The scapegoat wasn't Killed, it died of it's "OWN FREE WILL". (But the Jews did push some off cliffs)

But "FORGIVEN SINS" are not "PAID FOR SINS".

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

There's a "HEAVEN/HELL" difference in "PAID/FORGIVEN" sins, OT saints had to wait until "JESUS PAID" before ascending to heaven with him.

The "GOAT KILLED" represents our "BODY OF SIN", We sacrifice it by crucifying the "old man", once that is done, we become the "BRIDE/BODY OF CHRIST", and the "FIRSTBORN".

And as the blood of the "PASSOVER LAMB" protected "ONLY THE FIRSTBORN" from "DEATH", we will "literally" "PASSOVER" (rapture) the coming "DAY OF ATONEMENT" (Trib) when Faith in Jesus will require the "physical "DEATH"" of the "old goat". (God's chastisement)

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You won't understand the scriptures until you understand the feast.

When folks mention mid/post trib rapture, you can be certain, they don't understand the "Feasts".

 

I agree with you that the scapegoat had sinns placed on its head. However the essential component of substitutionary atonement is that the sin offering is "stands in our place". It is the sacrifice "the payment" the debt that WE owe that is paid in the blood of the animal "Sacrificed".

It is instructive that the Lev 16 is careful NOT to point to the scapegoat as either a "Sacrifice" or a "sin offering". In fact if you will notice Lev 16 is able to STOP referring to the Lord's Goat - as "The Lord's Goat" and simply call it "The SIN OFFERING" since there is "only ONE" and the reference is not ambiguous once the offering is identified!

That is very instructive!

Heb 9 says "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins"

Heb 10 says that ANIMAL blood NEVER took away sins - but that year by year SINS REMAINED in some sense. (This means that in fact it was only the blood of Christ at the cross that REALLY forgives sins).

There is no reference in Lev 16 to the scapegoat being anyting OTHER than "the LIVE Goat".

There is no reference in the Lev 16 model to the Scapegoat dying AT ALL!

That is very significant because ite points to the fact that the death of the scapegoat (of old age, or wild animals or ...) was NOT entering into the atonement process as being necessary for the day to be completed. The ENTIRE process was completed in one day and at the end (even though the LIVE GOAT still existed ) Atonement was complete!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Matt 10
37 "" He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 ""And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "" He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

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This is the sacrifice of each Christian in "taking up their cross".

In 1Cor 15 Pauls says that he is "crucified daily".

But death and crucifixion is NOT presented in the form of the "LIVE GOAT" of Lev 16. Nor is death to self "Substitutionary" or "Atoning".

In Matt 7 Christ informs us that NOT ALL who "SAY Lord Lord" are going to experience full atonement. "THE FEW" will but the MANY will not because as their claims to forgiveness are presented by the High Priest before the Lord they are found to be false-sheep. Their sins return to them to be paid by them - and NOT in a a "substitutionary way" they simply suffer for their own sins in the lake of fire - the second death... tormented with fire and brimstone IN the presence of the Lamb (Rev 14).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Only two feast required a "Blood sacrifice", passover/day of atonement, but Jews don't accept the passover as a "SIN offering", only the "day of Atonement.

Jews don't believe in a "HUMAN SACRIFICE" for sin, as Jesus represented in the Passover lamb.

EXACTLY, forgiveness "DOES NOT" pay the wages of sin, Israel's sins were "forgiven", but not paid, but some, in preaching it, doesn't understand it. (the law)

In scripture, there isn't, but Israel understood it, that's why the colored cloth was tied around the column, when the GOAT died, the cloth turned "White".

The only way the Jews knew the scapegoat had died was when the cloth turned white, the "shekinah", (Glory) of God left the temple and the cloth stopped changing colors, even today, they don't know the "SCAPEGOAT" has "ALREADY" died.

When the goat died really didn't make any difference, only that the ScapeGoat had to die.

Later, Jews started pushing the Goat off of cliffs, rather than turning it loose, they also "assisted" in the death of the "OTHER" "Scapegoat". (Jesus)

In the feast, Jesus is:

1. Passover lamb
2. Unleaven Bread
3. FirstFruit
4. Pentecost, (Holy Ghost=voice (ghost) of Jesus
5. F. Trumpets (trump (voice) of God)
6. Day of Atonement (Scapegoat)
7. F. Tabernacles (living with GOD,(JESUS))

"JESUS" is "EVERYTHING".

[ October 16, 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

Leviticus is the book that "Defines" What a "sin offering" is.

That is beyond debate. All scholars admit that the term is defined in Lev.

And ALL agree that IN Lev 16 the term "Sin offering" is used to refer to the Lord's goat "alone" in vs 16.

The fact that "Goat of the sin offering" can be an unnambiguous reference to the Lord's goat SHOWS that the Scapegoat is NOT a sin offering!

The fact that the PAssover lamb is ALSO a sin offering is noted in Leviticus AND by Paul in 1Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

There is just no escaping this!

In Christ,

Bob