Floyd or Burleson

Agreed.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you calling sin good? I guess that is a sign of the times. There was a time when those in public service has to pass a physical to stay employed. Let's call it what the Bible calls it--gluttony and sin.

 

Think about the age of those who have anything in the Annuity Board. Do you really think it is those who are less than 21? It is the older who are closer to retirement who feel trapped. Many of the younger have already left. Jimmy Draper saw that a serious problem a few years ago and wanted to do something about it.

It certainly was not the young ones who misled people and took their money in the BFA scandal and never apologized.

 

Tell ya what gb....if you want to say that making a rude remark about a man AND HIS WIFE based upon his or her physical size is acceptable and simply calling out sin...friend, I will just let the absolute ignorance and un -charitable nature of your silly and demeaning comment stand on its own. You justify it all you want...it was an irresponsible remark, sophomoric at best and cruel at its worst. Your bitterness and resentment against all that is Southern Baptist speaks for itself. Even if you had a platform worthy of consideration you undermine your own position by the unkind words you post on this board.

shame on you

Jack

 

If you think what I wrote was wrong then give me an answer for what gluttony is and reprove me.

He is not just any old man on the street but rather a leader whom others look to for leadership. Those fall under a stricter judgment.

When I was in the SBC my insurance was more than double what it was in the private world. Maybe if you had heard what the insurance agent told me you might take notice.

 

OK gb...this is my last post on this because what you said is undefensible and frankly I am surprised that no one else has called you on it.

You are saying that because Dr. Patterson and his wife are in your opinion large then they are gluttons. OUTSTANDING!!!! Guess Spurgeon, Moody, Winfred Moore, Keith Parks and Charles Wade are Gluttons...I have already reproved you and I am done with you. Quite frankly your a sad person whos bitterness and mean spirit is very transparent. I will no longer post concerning your comments and I will pray that God would do a work of grace in your heart,

Jack

 

Back to Original Post's theme...
Since Dr. Page and Dr. Floyd will be nominated, I'm not sure I can vote for Dr. Floyd because of his poor record on CP giving. I don't yet know enough about Dr. Page to decide about him. But I am glad there will be a choice.

I think if Dr. Floyd wins our church will decide to change our 10% giving to the CP and give at presidential percentage levels

 

When Ronnie Floyd became the pastor of my home church, our CP giving was nearly 22%. He urged our church to give less to the CP so that we could spend the money on local ministry, including his plan for television broadcasts of our services (we had been on local FM radio for years). Our church resisted his attempted cuts in CP giving and most of his vision for improvements to our facilities and initiation of television broadcasts (which he called "The Master's Plan" -- a name later used for a similar and more ambitious plan at First Baptist Springdale) led to a power struggle and his eventual "calling" to First Baptist Springdale.

I don't want to characterize that period as entirely negative though, because God did great things in our congregation in the midst of that turmoil. God used Ronnie Floyd to stir up our congregation and make our faith something to get concerned about. In the immediate aftermath of his departure, First Baptist Springdale "called" our entire pastoral staff one-by-one over the next two months leaving the church without any permanent staff members. After that, the church split and two strong churches have developed with very different identities. The Ronnie Floyd supporters left and started a church that is now affiliated with the Southern Baptists of Texas, and those who had reservations or opposition to Ronnie Floyd's agenda remain with the Baptist General Convention of Texas.

 

I asked you earlier "If you think what I wrote was wrong then give me an answer for what gluttony is and reprove me."

Is that too much to ask?

So are you saying that it is okay to eat too much while others around the world do not have enough to eat? Give me one verse where that is okay.

Maybe you do not take the commands of God seriously. I choose to not compare my life with another man but by what scripture teaches.

Again your opinion is only opinion. Now do as I asked and use your God inspired Bible (that is if you believe the Bible) to show where I am wrong.

You have not used one verse to reprove me as I asked. Isn't that part of what 2 Timothy 3:16 says?

 

gb...I have already said I will not continue this discussion with you. I have been edited by the Mods while your attacks are allowed to stand. I have been told that I was insulting you while all along I was simply saying that you seemed bitter in your remarks as time after time you have hurled insults at the leaders and the personalities of the SBC. I have said and stand on what I have said and I believe your comments and the spirit in which they are presented speak volumes. If you perceive this as a victory for your verbal insults then ok...I guess you win...you showed me...I surrender. Good for you!

This is my last post concerning you or in response to you.

Blessings
Jack

 

I do not know anyone who is always right. So I ask if you can show me where I am wrong according to scripture then do so. On another issue you mentioned I am bitter. If I am bitter then so was Martin Luther, Jesus, and so is Frank Page in the following article. I have simply chosen to not go alog with the status quo and say something about it.

The following article is found at http://www.abpnews.com/www/1038.article

Associated Baptist Press

SBC candidate Frank Page warns of rising discontent among conservatives

By Greg Warner

Published: May 23, 2006

TAYLORS, S.C. (ABP) -- Warning "there is a serious disconnect between the leaders of our Southern Baptist Convention and the rank-and-file," South Carolina pastor Frank Page announced he will be a candidate for SBC president next month.

Page's announcement May 22 guarantees Southern Baptists the first seriously contested election since 1994 -- and only the second challenge to come from within the ranks of SBC conservatives themselves.

Page, pastor of First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C., will face Ronnie Floyd, pastor of First Baptist Church of Springdale, Ark. Floyd has the endorsement of the SBC's conservative establishment, which has controlled the denomination since 1979.

Page, 53, was recruited by conservative Southern Baptists dissatisfied with Floyd's weak denominational support and close ties with the SBC establishment, which Page and others say is excluding too many people.

In a news release announcing his candidacy, Page praised Floyd and gave assent to the movement that ousted moderates in the 1980s. He said the differences that prompted his nomination are not about theology or personalities but "methodology -- how we do missions and how we do convention work."

Page described an SBC establishment that has lost touch with those who put it in power.

"There is a serious disconnect between the leaders of our Southern Baptist Convention and the rank-and-file layperson and pastor," he wrote. "Some perceive that there is a well-oiled machine, filled with power-hungry politicians, running the show, while the vast majority of loyal, supportive people are left without any voice and/or influence. While this observation may or may not be true, there is a serious perception of disconnect and distrust."

He called for a "truly democratic convention."

"Let us have two or more conservative, solid candidates run each year," he wrote, without "calling into question anyone’s integrity or veiled threats regarding suicide of political futures."

"Many of us are tired of seeing the same names on committees year after year," he continued. "Many of us are losing patience with the perception that a few people control everything in the Southern Baptist Convention."

In a later interview with Associated Baptist Press, Page said doctrinal conditions for leadership in the SBC should not exceed the "Baptist Faith and Message," the doctrinal statement adopted in 2000.

He said that agency trustees, like those at the International Mission Board, have a right to set guidelines for whom they employ, but he added: "Doctrinally, we need to stay with the parameters of the 'Baptist Faith and Message.'"

IMB trustees have been criticized for adopting policies for missionary selection that define the proper setting for baptism and that restrict charismatic practices.

Likewise, it is improper to exclude people from denominational participation because their churches don't contribute a certain percentage of receipts to the Cooperative Program, the SBC's central budget that funds state, national and international ministries.

But, he added, it is "absolutely" appropriate to expect elected leaders to support the ministries they govern. "I would be morally irresponsible to call myself Southern Baptist and not support the work that we do," he told ABP. "We must have leaders that model that kind of cooperation."

"Is this election going to be one in which a candidate is elected who gives little support to the Cooperative Program and at the same meeting the convention is asked to vote on initiatives which strengthen the Cooperative Program (and expect leaders to model that cooperation)?" he wrote in his news release.

At the June 13-14 SBC meeting, messengers will be asked to approve recommendations designed to increase support for the Cooperative Program and urging the election of officers who belong to churches that give at least 10 percent of their undesignated receipts to the CP.

Floyd, former chairman of the SBC Executive Committee, has been criticized because his church gives 0.27 percent through the Cooperative Program. Page's church contributes 12.1 percent.

"To have a president who gives one quarter of a percent," while adopting a 10 percent standard, sends a "duplicitous message," Page told ABP.

Page softened his critique, however, adding in his news release: "We must affirm that all mission work is vital and appropriate. I will never cast aspersions upon any church or pastor who is on mission for God. Whether or not they do it through the Cooperative Program or through our convention or on their own, they have to answer before the Lord as to how they do mission work."

And he warned that the SBC's "bloated bureaucracy" discourages many people from contributing sacrificially, and simply shouting “Give more, give more!” won't work.

Page, who grew up in Greensboro, N.C., site of the June SBC meeting, has served most of his career in the Southeast. Both factors could help his election chances.

He warned of a "state of turmoil" engulfing several SBC agencies and an "overall malaise" affecting SBC churches.

Turmoil is evident at the North American Mission Board, where the president recently resigned under pressure, he said, and the International Mission Board, where some trustees have targeted the president. And, at the IMB, "missionaries have changed to an entirely different missions methodology over the last several years," Page said.

"I feel strongly that Southern Baptists need to deal with all of these issues," he wrote.

If that weren't challenge enough, Southern Baptist churches face "dangerous days," he said, according to recent statistics that show a pattern of decline in baptisms, Sunday school attendance and other indicators.

"Above all that, there is an overall malaise among many people," he said. "There are many groups that state that the “threads” by which we are connected are becoming increasingly frayed and tenuous. What will hold us together? … Is there any way for us to do anything other than to rearrange deck chairs on a sinking Titanic?"

In such dangerous times, Page wrote, Southern Baptists need to practice openness, accept their differences, and include more people -- rather than exclude people.

"For almost 30 years we have concentrated on doctrinal purity (Praise the Lord!). Let us now add to our passion, revival, soul-winning, and missions!"

Page, who said he attended his first SBC meeting in 1979 when the "conservative resurgence" began, acknowledged "we have certainly not seen great gains" in the denomination since that time. Conservatives at the time claimed liberalism was hurting the SBC's evangelistic fervor.

Page told ABP he was "disappointed" by that lack of progress, but he added, "I'm not sure it's because of the conservative resurgence."

"It's certianly sad that, after all those years of strong conservative leadership, our evangelism is not any better."

Solving the SBC's malaise starts with cooperation, he said.

"I am convinced we can do that better together than by pulling apart, as we are prone to do," he said.

"I'm not running against Ronnie Floyd. I'm sure he's a wonderful person. Thank the Lord for that. I just believe that, as Southern Baptists, we can do a lot better if we pull together."

"If anything will hold us together it will be a rallying around missions and evangelism … and church transformation," he said.

With so many congregations in decline, it is important to help churches become revitalized, said Page, who has led two such "turnaround churches." A revitalized church does not have to choose between being evangelistic or supporting denominational missions, he said. "I believe you can do it all if the church becomes revitalized and transformed."

Oklahoma pastor Wade Burleson, whom many observers thought would be a candidate for president, told ABP he will not be nominated since he and Page are in agreement about the need for openness and inclusiveness in the SBC.

While there might be "a multitude of issues" about which they would disagree, Page said, he and Burlseon are in agreement about the needs of the convention.

While Burleson is a Calvinist, Page wrote a book discounting that doctrinal system. But both men said there is room for the other point of view in the SBC and pledged to honor those differences.

Page said there is a need "to pull together various factions" within the SBC, and he mentioned young pastors, "emergent" pastors, Calvinists, extreme legalists, strong denominationalists, and even the few remaining moderates.

Page acknowledged that, while contemplating his nomination, he had received some of those "veiled threats regarding suicide of political futures." But he said such warnings about opposing the SBC establishment "didn't concern" him because he had no ambitions about denominational office.

"I have no political future," he quipped.

 

Well then God bless you gb in your stand. May He grant you the wisdom to know and act on His desire for your life.

Jack

 

Floyd will win hands down, because that is what happens when someone like Johnny Hunt is the nominator. Floyd's church this year gave something like $200,000 directly to the Executive Committee which divies up money to the various agencies of the SBC, like seminaries, the IMB, NAMB, etc. If a church goes through the traditional process by only giving to the state convention, then the state's determined percentage of that amount will go to the Executive Committee. For example, if one wanted to support the seminaries and IMB and other agencies with as many dollars as Floyd's church gave directly to the Ex. Comm. this year, and wanted to do so through the Baptist General Convention of Virginia, the amount would have to be something over $1,000,000, since the BGCV percentage is between 10-20 percent, I can't remember just right now, i.e., the other 80-90 percent stays in the coffers of the state convention for state or state-sponsored missions projects. I'm sure Arkansas' percentage is higher than that, but some churches are growing frustrated with the direction of the use of funds by their own state convention.

 

Floyd very well may win, but I would not say it will be hands down. A couple years ago in Indy a small church pastor was nominated off the floor and got a decent amount of votes for people not having a clue who he was. I think Page has a shot at winning.

 

In my conversations with other pastors in our association, there is an amazing amount of guys saying, "I'm going to vote for Dr. Page, because I am tired of being told who to vote for."

Total Truth: A View Towards the SBC in Greensboro: Floyd vs. Page is a good - and funny - comparison between the 2 men.

 

According to the ABP's latest release, an interesting race is shaping up for 1st VP as well. If you are among those who looks at what a pastor's church gives to cooperative missions, including the state convention of which they are a part, find out about Mark Dever and Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington. I will say no more other than to alert you that the state convention is the District of Columbia Baptist Convention -- the only state convention, so far as I know, to be defunded by the North American Mission Board, and therefore in urgent need of support from its churches.

 

Just in from Baptist Press

Tennessee pastor Jerry Sutton joins contest for SBC presidency http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=23400
By Don Hinkle

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--Tennessee pastor Jerry Sutton confirmed June 6 he will allow his name to be placed in nomination for president of the Southern Baptist Convention at its June 13-14 annual meeting in Greensboro, N.C.

. . .