Featured For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

The Kingdom of God did not come in its fullness at that time, as jesus said that it was not yet the time, and peter confirmed that it was not the time to have it ushered in right then, for if had been, there would have beem the kingdom restired to israel, and the whole earth would have had the messianuc age come in!


How can you keep seeing Joel as fully fulfilled, or that national Israel forfeitrd the Kingdom forever, as very clear God used their hardness to bring Gentiles unto salvation, but once done dealing with them, will turn back towards the redemption of the jewish peoples!

 

Scripture please!

11 .......we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 But others mocking said, They are filled with new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2

 

They didn't really forfeit the Kingdom; GOD took it!

Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

But I don't believe national Israel ever really had the Kingdom. They were simply the vessel through which God would accomplish the Incarnation and fulfill the promises of Genesis 3:15 and subsequent promises of the Redeemer!

John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

And peter said that if israel would have accepted messiah as being Jesus, he would have ushered in the messianic Age then, but that waits until His second coming, when israel returns, and that glory will be greater than the kingdom now restored at that time, correct?

When jesus comes back, national israel shall be saved in that time, and their reinstitution back to God will be a glorious thing for all the earth!

 

[FONT=&quot]John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
"His own" being the nation of Israel, had not only rejected Christ, but the Kingdom that he would have given them had they accepted him. But they rejected him instead.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]
--Even at the time of His ascension the disciples were still anticipating the Kingdom. It was not to come. Not yet. In fact Jesus rebuked them telling them they had better things to do.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.[/FONT]
--The Kingdom could wait. In the following verse he once again gives them the Great Commission. That was to be their focus from here on in.

 

Jesus knew they were asking it in terms as a Jewish understanding of messianic reigning , basically asking Him if God would usher in the Messianic Age right then, but he told them not yet, and that their program was to be evangelists in his name!

Just cannot see where jesus and later the Apostle confirmed God had made a final judgement against Israel, and that ALL of her blessings passed over to the church at that time!

 

Consider the Scripture you posted.

11 .......we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?[/quote]
What does this mean? They were speaking in tongues. That is what the question refers to. What does the miracle of "speaking in tongues" mean?

And this is the answer of the ungoldy Jews. They attributed that Godly gift of speaking in tongues to drunkenness. This is solid evidence that the context is narrowed to speaking in tongues.

Peter says these that speak in tongues are not drunk. He is not referring to the other phenomena. The context is the speaking in tongues alone.

Two things to note here.
1. The last days started with Pentecost and continue until now and will continue until the Second Coming.
2. He did not pour his Spirit out on ALL flesh. There is not a person on this board that can honestly admit to that fact, not honestly and rationally.
NOTE:
*This was the Feast of Pentecost--ALL present were Jews.
*Out of approximately 100,000 Jews, only 3,000 were saved. God poured out His Spirit on 3,000 out of about 100,000 Jews. That is not ALL Flesh. It is not 100%. That is what the prophecy says. Like it or not it says ALL flesh, not some flesh or a few flesh, but ALL flesh.
*They did come from "every nation" so to speak. In fact there are about 13 different nations mentioned. That is because it was one of the major Jewish feasts. Jews from all over--as far as Egypt, Arabia, Crete, etc. came to celebrate this feast. They came from different parts of the known world to celebrate the Feast held at the Temple.

Some of them did, but only a very few. It was a partial fulfillment. The complete fulfillment of this prophecy is still future. It will be completely fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom to come.

None of this ever happened. It can't be documented. You can't go back in history and find it documented by anyone: Josephus, Tacitus, or any historian.
It is foolish to say that because it is there it happened. That is what cults do.

For example:

When the Preterist or Amillennialist claim that these things already happened with no proof they are no better than the founders of the SDA who claimed that Christ has already come. They don't have the evidence.

This again is a partial or incomplete fulfillment.
Did you ever look at the actual prophecy that Peter was quoting, and then consider the audience to whom he was preaching to?

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
--He is speaking to the Jews and only to the Jews, both in Joel and in Acts.
The Jews knew that.
The context is the Kingdom, specifically the Millennial Kingdom.
Whosoever shall call upon him shall be saved. And that is exactly what shall happen when Christ comes for His elect (the Jews) at the end of the Tribulation just before He ushers in the Millennial Kingdom. As a nation they will turn to him and believe on Him.
That "remnant" shall be saved.
So then, all Israel shall be saved."
Then this prophecy will be fulfilled in its entirety. Now it only has a partial fulfillment.

 

You need to prove that by Scripture!

Stephen said of the Jews just before they killed him:

Act 7:51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What is going to change that?

**********************************

You are totally ignoring the passage I presented earlier about the Kingdom of GOD.

John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.[/QUOTE]

You deny this truth and say His Kingdom is of this world. Nonsense!

Answer this! When Jesus Christ returns it will be in the full Glory of the Godhead. Now tell me how humans are going to live in His presence!

 

I appreciate your post Icon. You are frank and honest.
I trust that you would not always assume that you should be on the opposite side of the coin as I am.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I am coming to understand that what you are saying is: you can articulate the pretrib position well because that is your former position. But the amil position is still a bit confusing because you are still in the process of learning about it??

Not a chance Icon. In fact, as soon as I am ordering Dave Hunt's book, "What Love is This." I believe he has the proper perspective on Calvinism. Can you refute his book?

You made my point here very well. They are both gifted. As you said about MacArthur he is very consistent. Yet at the same time he is wrong and you are right. That would cause me to have second thoughts about the position you are taking.

I don't find that to be a true statement. Maybe that is your experience; it seems to be a road that you have taken. The books by LaHaye, and others who were even more sensational than he, have not turned me away from the truth at all. The have only made me to be concerned about being sensational in both preaching and writing. The Bible is our guide.
If someone takes a certain position to an extreme that doesn't make the basic position wrong. There are many amil people who are reprobates. But that doesn't make you one.

I am not sure of the current interpretation.

And it is still true. Paul said the same thing.
In 2Cor.12:4, Young's translation, an accurate translation of this verse, says:
2 Corinthians 12:4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
--There was nothing "unlawful" (KJV) for Paul to speak. It was not possible for him to speak of those things which he saw. He didn't have the vocabulary to express in his own language. It was impossible; he didn't have the vocabulary.

I have read some of Pink's commentary. I couldn't read very much of it. Much of it is nonsense. He finds a type under every nut, leaf, tree, etc. If he could he would make the punctuation marks represent something (there were none in the originals).

The Bible says exactly what happened.
Joseph said, "IN MY DREAM, the sun, moon and stars bowed down to me." So, no, they did not bow down to him. It was a dream! But his father knew the interpretation and was indignant as he replied:
"Shall your mother and I, and your brothers bow down and do obeisance to you!" And he was rebuked.
However, the dream was prophetic, and it did come to pass in Joseph's lifetime. It was completely fulfilled and there is no need to look any further.

And was it a Charismatic couple got divorced because the wall of Jericho came tumbling down, just like the wall of love that bound them together.
With allegory you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say.
I have heard some of the strangest interpretations.

I observe. I believe the Bible. God meant what he said. I am not a conspiracist. Your interpretations lend one to believe in hidden conspiracies, gnostic truths, buried allegories, etc. God never spoke to his people that way.

Is that verifiable by Charles Taze Russel or Ellen G. White?
Just what source are you using to validate this so-called fact?
One cannot state something as fact and not be able to verify it.
The Apostle John wrote in 90 A.D. and said:

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many--whence we know that it is the last hour;
--That Antichrist does or will come. He hadn't come yet. This was in 90 A.D., well after Titus had come and gone.

You have done well in this post, and I appreciate that very much.

I have recently threatened an infraction because it appears that the only way he is making a particular point is by putting down or even slandering another person. If one cannot put forth their position without attacking the person than they shouldn't be posting. Therefore, it isn't a "solid post" is it?

You are right; after having re-read the OP perhaps I should have stayed out of the conversation.

Again, I appreciate your spirit and honesty in posting,

I don't think I would be disappointed either. We may be on the opposite side of the eschatological fence, but I am sure that you are a good witness for the Lord.

 

No, they weren’t ungodly, the context of Acts 2 clearly describes them as being ‘devout’.

No, ‘the solid evidence’ that ‘the great and notable day of the Lord’ spoken of by the prophet Joel had come upon them was them hearing the gospel preached in their own language due to the apostles being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking as the Spirit gave them utterance.

No, ‘the last days’ is the very same ‘end of the age’ of the Olivet discourse or ‘latter days’ of the Song of Moses’, and refers simply to the final days of the old covenant.

No, He did indeed pour His spirit upon all flesh as Peter clearly testified in Acts 10 & 11. God is no respecter of persons.

Concerning these ‘last days’, Christ told the house of Israel:

.... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever....Mt 21:19

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23:38

Which agrees with:

21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

Their's is a heaven and earth of iron and brass:

And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23

We, on the other hand, are the new wineskins, the new creatures of the new heaven and new earth of the new covenant that drink new wine in the new Jerusalem. We, as new creatures, are the Israel of God.

 

Verse 5 says:
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
--That doesn't mean they were all devout. If all were truly devout, then why weren't all devout.
Or, even if all were devout in the Judaism, as Saul was before he was saved, they would not have scorned what was happening. They were not ALL devout.
Now look down at verse 13:
Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
--The are "the others" who mocked. They are certainly not of the "devout."
They scorned what was happening. They were the reprobate, attributing the works of God to profane and wickedness.

The context was speaking in tongues. Even if it was "the great and notable day of the Lord," that refers to the Second Coming of Christ which never happened. Then one could accuse Christ as being a false prophet.

You are reading into Scripture things that are not there. Simply because you hold to covenantal view of Scripture does not make it true, and does not give you the right to allegorize the rest of the Bible to force your interpretation into it when it does't fit.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
--This is a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, and therefore it starts here. The Scripture you give is all in future tense.

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
--Paul warned Timothy about these days. They were upon him. He gives a description of the times that he was living in.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--In contradistinction to verse one, where God spoke in various ways in OT times through his prophets, he has spoken to us in the last days through HIS SON, which began at Pentecost. That is when he sent the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
--There were scoffers at Pentecost and there are scoffers now. They attributed the speaking in tongues to drunkenness then, and they jest at the Word of God today. We still live in the last days.

Yes he is. If he wasn't he you would believe in universalism and ALL would be saved. As it is here is what Christ said:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--Some will go to heaven and some will go to hell.
The Spirit of God did not rest upon ALL flesh. That is very obvious.

None of the above scriptures have absolutely anything to do with Pentecost.

 

All of us agree that in prophecy are some types/figures of speech, but not ot he extent that we have to question it all having been just symbolic/spiritualized!

and to give relief to you who are afflicted [d]and to us as well [e]when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with [f]His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified [g]in His [h]saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
2 thessalonians 1:7-10 Nasb

Spiritualized/symbol. or a real event?

 

Amillennialism and Post are fallacies. They are allegorical systems to interpretation that slap the historical grammatical approach in the face. Those that hold to these systems change their hermeneutics with prophecy but follow the historical method in other topics such as Christology, The Holy Spirit,etc... It was in Alexandria that your system gave birth.

 

I would take that language as speaking in symbolic like ways, but actually describing a real historical event happening...

Like when it states that the elements will melt away, I take that to mean literally melted/destroyed!