Featured For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

Do you believe this is a good site, LITERALLY?

You seem to be getting your beliefs from a site that believes in baptismal regeneration.

 

I was just looking around the site, the same link you posted. It is hosted by a Community Church. I went to their beliefs and that is what I found.

In Isaiah 34 the Lord is simply using Edom as one nation to represent all Gentile nations. What happens to Edom will happen to all. It is representative of all the nations. The judgement described here is very similar to that in Revelation and very typical of what will happen in the Great Tribulation.

However concerning Edom itself here is some history that I have gleaned, most of it from Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia.

Going back to the time of Solomon, when the Kingdom was split and Rehoboam became king over Judah, at that time the Edomites regained their independence. However with the rise of the Assyrian Empire in the 9th Century B.C. they had to pay tribute to the Assyrians and were ruled by them. During this time the Edomites were ruled in part by Assyria and in part by Judah who also demanded tribute.
A revolt took place in the 9th century against Judah that was put down by Amaziah, resulting in the death of many Edomites (2Kings 14:7). He threw them down from the high rock of Petra (2Chr.25:12). This greatly weakened the Edomites, and they ceased to play any great role in the history of the Near East.
Because of their callous attitude toward Jerusalem, when Jerusalem was plundered, the prophets denounced Edom (Jer.49:7-22; Ez.25;12-14; cf. Ob.10-14). Obadiah especially forewarned about the judgment that would befall the house of Esau.
Soon after that the Nabataeans began to dislodge the Edomites from their country and occupied it in their stead. Already in 646 B.C. Ashurbanipal of Assyria had met the Nabataeans on his campaign against the Arabs near the land of Edom. It appears that with the reduction of their number and the loss of the greater part of their territory, the Edomites withdrew to S. Palestine which later came to be called Idumea.
There appears to have been no relationship between the Nabataeans and the Edomites or Idumeans. Antipater and his son Herod the Great were both Idumean, and looked upon the Nabataeans as an alien people. (Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, pp.492-93)

 

prophecy and revelation in specifiic, uses language to express to us in graphic forms what the Apostle saw, and to him, there would be "like lightning/falling etc", but does not mean that would not be actual literal things happening!

Do you think that when jesus returns, that he will be riding a white horse, and have a real sword in his mouth?

Symbolic language that points to the truth that Jesus is coming back, that he will speak just his word to slay the armies assembled to fight him...

real event, just using a figure of speech to make his words like a sword out of his mouth!

 

Seeing them as being used to give a graphic/vivid picture of an actual historical event!

 

I back what he say 100%... Then the scriptures will open up before you as never before and harmonize:thumbsup:

 

No, the interpretation of this is quite simple.
Edom is not simply a "symbol." She is representing or a representative of many or all Gentile nations, she being a Gentile nation herself. As judgment will fall upon her, it will fall upon others.
The real topic of this chapter is "The Lord's Day of Vengeance."

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Verses 2-4 indicate that his judgment will come upon ALL nations of the world.
Consider just verse two:
Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Then Isaiah uses Edom as an example of this judgment that will come upon the whole world. This is the logical outline of this entire chapter. The words "Edom" and "Esau" are interchangeable. Edom comes from Esau. Esau was Jacob's brother, and he became a perpetual enemy of Jacob or Israel. Thus she is an appropriate example for all the nations of the world.

Verses 5-8 God's sacrifice of Edom by His sword in Bozrah
Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
--Consider also Isaiah 63:1. (This is considered as a great sacrifice in Bozrah).
The modern day city (Boseirah) is about 25 miles SE of the Dead Sea where various animals were slaughtered for sacrifice. God's reason for judging Edom is that he must uphold Zion's cause (34:8).

"On the day of vengeance" 34:8 See Isa.61:2; 63:4. When His chosen people are attacked, (Israel), Jehovah goes to their aid.

Verses 9-17 God's Sword of Judgment is upon Edom. Her land will seem to be ablaze with sulfur (Obad.18; Isa.30:33).
And also with a burning pitch--a tar-like substance seemingly unquenchable.
The land will be desolate for many generations (34:10,11).
Edom's cities and territories will be inhabited by wild birds and animals which do not normally inhabit populated villages and towns.
Owls (vs.11,13); ravens (vs.11); jackals (vs.13); hyenas...wild goats (vs.14); falcons (vs.15) and other desert creatures (vs.14) will thrive because no people will be there (vs.12). Edom's defense's will be overgrown with thornbushes (vs.13). The wild creatures will live in Edom from generation to generation (vs.17, 10), because God's Spirit will so direct them (vs. 16) [information taken from The Bible Knowledge Commentary by Wlavoord and Zuck]

James MacDonald has the same general view. He is a bit more specific however.
34:1-4 When Jehovah judges the Gentiles (nations) the air will reek from the decomposing corpses, and the mountains will melt away from the torrent of their blood. Even the stellar heavens will be convulsed.

34:5-7 The sword of the Lord, "intoxicated with blood," will fall in fury on Edom, both on the common people (lambs, goats, rams) and on the nobles or leaders (wild oxen young bulls, mighty bulls.)

34:8 It is the day of the Lord's vengeance.
The word "vengeance" refers to God's action in carrying out the sentence which He as Judge has justly imposed (Daily Notes of the Scripture Union)

34:9-17 This passage describes Edom's fate--a blazing inferno, an uninhabited waste, taken over by mysterious birds and wild beasts. God will not stop until it is without form and void. There will be no kingdom, no king, no princes worthy of the name. Its ruins will be overgrown with thorns and and it will be a sanctuary for strange creatures (which cannot be identified with certainty). Every weird creature will have a mate, and thus will reproduce, and God has given them the ruins of Edom to possess...from generation to generation. Forever in this chapter (vs.10,17) means from generation to generation.

Hope that helps. As has already been pointed out, many of the same phenomena are in the Book of Revelation where this prophecy will find its complete and ultimate fulfillment in the Great Tribulation.

 

Notice in Luke 4:19,20, when Jesus had closed the book, he closed it just having said these words: "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
He quoted from Isaiah 61:1,2a, but not the second half of the second verse or the third. He stopped short of mentioning "the day of vengeance." That is not what He had come to do. It was not fulfilled in Jesus' day.

This had no application to the disciples of the first century, nor does it have any application to us today. I believe in the rapture. If the rapture will take place right now this verse is false for I am not in Judea and I cannot flee there.
2nd. If there is no rapture, and only the Second Coming and a general resurrection, then I am still in Canada and cannot go to Judea, and the verse is still false.
3rd. If the verse has only a local interpretation such as the Preterist claims it to have then it is still false. When Titus came:
Thomas was already in India and died as a martyr there.
Matthew had gone to Ethiopia as a missionary.
Peter died in Rome in 67,68 falling short of the destruction of Jerusalem. He never fled to Judea.
James the son of Zebedee was put to death by Herod Agrippa in ca. 44 A.D. he never fled to Judea.
The apostle John, IMO, lived to the second century, perhaps even dying on the Isle of Patmos, or some say in Ephesus. Even so he didn't flee to the hills of Judea.
Concerning Andrew--No accurate death date given. A variety of traditions say he preached in Scythia, in Greece, in Asia Minor and Thrace. He is reported to have been crucified at Patrae in Achaia. But he didn't flee to the hills of Judea.
Concerning Philip: According to tradition he preached in Phrygia, and died at Hierapolis. There is no evidence he ever fled to the hills of Judea.
James Alpheus--According to tradition, James son of Alpheus was thrown down from the temple by the scribes and Pharisees; he was then stoned, and his brains dashed out with a fuller’s club. No fleeing to Judea for James.
Jude (Thaddeus): according to tradition Jude taught in Armenia, Syria and Persia where he was martyred. Tradition tells us he was buried in Kara Kalisa in what is now Iran. --No fleeing to the hills of Judea.
For other information check here:
http://amazingbibletimeline.com/bible_questions/q6_apostles_die/

The prophecy is false if you think it applies to the apostles. It was impossible to have that near fulfillment. The only fulfillment that it can possibly have is for the Jews in that 70th week to come, that Great Tribulation yet to take place, when all Israel shall be saved. Then those Jews, when persecuted in their own land will flee to the hills of Judea--literally.

This then is a continuation from verse 21, which describes the Second Coming, or the Day of Vengeance--that same day when Christ comes to save Israel is also the same day that He comes to defeat Israel's nation. Thus Edom, a representative of the nations of the world, will suffer the wrath of Christ at that time.
This entire passage is the same talk as Jesus gave his disciples in Mat.24, or the Olivet Discourse. The discussion starts out with the disciples asking:
"what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" (21:7).
--As in most prophecies it would have a partial and near fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem, but its complete fulfillment would not be until the Great Tribulation which is still to come.

In these four passages: Isaiah 34, Joel 2, Acts 2, Rev. 6, etc. the sun, moon and stars are quite literal for the most part. In some respect they are what John sees, and at the same time as literal as we dare to interpret them.

The context of Joel 2 is the Lord speaking to Israel and only Israel. Gentiles are not involved. The Lord is coming to fulfill his promises for the nation of Israel near the end of the Tribulation which will also be at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. At that time there will be signs in the skies. At that time all Israel shall be saved.

Again, a description of the Great Tribulation. You will find many of the above scenarios in the Book of Revelation.

 

Jesus did not describe anyone fleeing to Pella.
Go to the passage again. His disciples came to him asking...
He wasn't speaking to a general audience. He was speaking only to The Twelve, and that is all. Not one of them were in Judea when Jerusalem was destroyed; not even one Apostle! and yet that is who he was speaking to!

Correct, but it couldn't apply to them since not one of them were in Judea at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. Thus no application, or a false prophecy!

Then it wouldn't be a rapture, would it?

Every scenario does not fit that one verse: "Then flee to Judea."
Remember Jesus was only talking to his Apostles and only to His Apostles. None of them ever made it back to Jerusalem by the time of its destruction. They weren't there. They did not flee to Judea. You are simply making this into a false prophecy.
The only possible correct interpretation is that it refers to the remnant of Israel that will be saved during the Great Tribulation to come. Then they will be persecuted (even as some are now hiding from the rockets of Gaza), and then Christ will come.

Ridiculous. They didn't have anything to flee from. The Apostles obeyed the Great Commission. Thomas didn't flee from anything when he volunteered to go to India. Matthew was not fleeing when he went to Ethiopia. He was martyred there. One does not flee to be martyred. Jesus "predicted" HOW Peter would die. That didn't frighten the apostles.

To even entertain this idea is beyond me. It is described so vividly in Rev.6-19. We know these events did not happen in the first century. I don't know how any one can claim they did.
According to the Book of Revelation more than half the population will die. As we approach 8 billion, that will be more than 4 billion people. It will not be the persecution of God's people or tribulation of God's people, but rather God's wrath and indignation against the ungodly of the world. Jerusalem will be protected not destroyed.

Not one Apostle fled into Judea--no fulfillment.
There is no applicable covenant here in Deu.28-32.
The Day of Vengeance is still future. Jesus stopped short of quoting that verse.

That was only a partial fulfillment, a near fulfillment. The complete fulfillment is yet to come.

You don't know what John saw, and that is the problem.
Meteors fall. Asteroids fall. Comets fall. John was not a trained astronomist. Even today people look out their window and look for "falling stars."
Here is a definition from good ol' Wikipedia:

So what did John see? He wasn't an astronomist.

Read it again. Not one word of Joel chapter two is written to Gentiles.

Jerusalem has always been "the apple of his eye."
When he comes, he will not come to destroy Jerusalem but to protect her.
The idea that the destruction of the Holy City could be the fulfillment of this prophecy runs against this great theme in that God could not destroy the very thing that He has promised to preserve.

 

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:1

Does that verse state that the LORD of hosts (my thought, is God the Father) will send the Lord (my thought, his Son named Jesus) with the message (word) from God the Father and that the Son will be preceded by someone ( John the baptizer)?

Is the following speaking of that word from God, the Father sent through Jesus his Son? The covenant message of Mal 3:1?

Acts 10:36,37 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: ) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

When and where did that covenant message begin? At Galilee after the baptism which John ( the one sent before of Mat 3:1) preached.

Is the covenant message of Mal. 3:1 and the word which God sent by Jesus Christ of Acts 10:36,37 the same as the following?

The beginning of the gospel of (spoken by) Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Mark 1:1

Followed with the predecessor John the baptizer and the baptism of Jesus and his temptation by Satan.

So just what is the word sent from God the Father, the covenant message, to be first spoken by the Lord, that is Jesus the Son of God? Did it begin in Galilee after the baptism that John preached?

Is it not?

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:14,15

Does the gospel of God that he sent by Jesus his Son the covenant word concern the kingdom of God? Is this what the Lord first began to speak about? Did the Son select twelve and or more to teach this same gospel? Does this gospel of the kingdom first to be spoken by the Lord to his selected ones concern great salvation?

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Did the ones Jesus selected tell this same gospel, great salvation, to others, the us in the verse above?

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Hebrews 2:5

Did the us in verse 3 the we of verse 5 state that the great salvation they heard from the selected of the Lord who heard from the Lord who first begin to speak of it as the kingdom of God concerned, "the world to come"?


Has, "the world to come," come? If so, when?

Consider verse 5 says, "the world to come," will not be subject to angels and the balance of chapter 2 states it will be man to whom the, "the world to cone," will be subjected even though we do not yet see that as so. It then speaks that we do see Jesus who was the heir of all things as having inherited all things yet not yet other men. Why? Is it not because those other men are presently only joint heirs with Christ and not yet inheritors? The, "world to come," has not yet been inherited by anyone but Jesus the son of Mary and also the Son of God.

This gospel of the kingdom of God was the gospel Jesus taught Paul and the gospel Paul spoke everywhere he went (Acts 20:25), including Thessalonica.

The only concerns those of Thessalonica had concerning those who had died in Christ was, being the kingdom of God, the world to come had not come, was how were they being dead going to be in the kingdom of God, the world to come.

Paul told them that God would bring them into the kingdom of God the world to come with Jesus in the same manner Jesus the heir of all things had inherited all things.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (by resurrection/instant change them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (into the kingdom of God, the world to come) 1 Thess 4:13

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Romans 8:17,19 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

Rapture and thy kingdom come, in the world to come, will take place in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump.

I wonder what Darby would have thought?

 

I have a better scenario for you into consider. I am in the Kingdom now and am serving God now. Since the Kingdom to my understanding an scripture is in me Christ in you the hope of glory. You go to church who do you serve? You serve God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. You have a bible that tells you Christ came into this world and set up his church his kingdom. He chose 12 Apostles and with his instructed teaching and doctrine used by them turned the world upside down. You are looking to the sky for his return and the Kingdom Of God and his Christ. I have the Bible the Kings book in my hand and read it daily. I go to the King in prayer and serve him as I am able And I serve him in the church he set up same as you do in your church. You Baptist, What did John come preaching.. Repent ye for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Jesus said to Peter upon this rock I build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Check history Satan has been trying to destroy the church Christ Kingdom in this world since Jesus Christ set it up. Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, (these are directed to those who are looking for a rapture) Listen to what Jesus said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21: Neither shall they say, Lo here, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you. I close with this a martyr who was being burned at the stake cried to God... "God open the eyes of the King Of England" and the answer to that prayer allows you to read for yourself your Bible today.

 

reconsider, "the kingdom now."

a couple of questions

'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (her)

What does, "shall not prevail," mean? What is the tense of, "shall not prevail"?

What does one do when one passes through the gates? When you pass through the gates do you enter therein?

The whole context of, "shall not prevail," is that the church passes through the gates but in the end those gates shall not prevail, that is keep her enclosed.

Just when shall come to pass the saying, "O death, (gates) where thy sting, O Hades where thy victory"?

Has anyone other than he who was made the heir of all things presently today inherited the kingdom of God? Have, "you," inherited the kingdom of God?

 

Sure have the kingdom of God and his Christ are in me. Christ shall just transfer my membership from my earthly kingdom into the eternal kingdom when the sting of death comes as it comes to all. Question do you have communion at your church and what is it for?

 

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.