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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by CJC, Sep 18, 2017.

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  1. CJC

    CJC New Member

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    What is Calvinism and Arminianism?

    I'm asking what each means so I know where I fall on this debate.
     
    #1 CJC, Sep 18, 2017
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You have asked a question that often gets defined in different ways by different people. I will say that Calvinism in short believes God elects some to be saved and He elects some to not be saved. God "effectually" saves the elect with not option to choose. The choosing is imposed on the elect.

    Arminianism believes that salvation is genuinely offered to everyone and that people have the freedom to choose to accept it or not. They also believe one can lose their salvation.

    The latter is often a catch all label for Calvinists for anyone who does not believe as they do.

    The truth is that you may fall into one category or the other or you may not identify with either.

    This is not a black and white issue.
     
    #2 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Nope. That is Hyper Calvinism.
     
    #3 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2017
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry but the idea that there is a general call and an effectual call is exactly the same thing.
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  5. CJC

    CJC New Member

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    Thank you, I know where I fall now and it's not in either, lol.

    So, I'll just bow out of the sub-forum and just read every so often.
     
    #5 CJC, Sep 19, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The point was, and is, that you claim double predestination to be main line Calvinism. It isn't. In fact the Canons of Dordt go out of their way to deny double predestination.
     
    #6 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2017
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The majority position would not be into a Double, but a single predestination as referring only to the elect in Christ.
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Sep 19, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, most Calvinists hold that God predestined and choose out His elect among the lost directly, and permitted all the rest to go their way.
     
    #8 Yeshua1, Sep 19, 2017
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Same difference
     
    #9 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not really, as double predestined a lot different than single one is!
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Sep 19, 2017
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What some of you are calling singe predestination is effectually double. If God chooses to lust leave them to their own devices then He is predestined them. To say He "permitted all the rest to go their way" is the exact same thing. Unless there is a genuine offer of salvation rather than just a mythical general (disingenuous) call then they have in fact been predestined to hell. I find attempt to make a distinction lacks integrity.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Either one has been offered a genuine call to salvation or one is predestined to hell. There is no other option.
     
    #12 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No. It's not.

    No, He hasn't. Man is a sinner and condemned by his own choice. The election of God is decretal. And always positive. Always.

    No, it is not.

    There is. As we have told you time and time again.

    I find the refusal to see the truth as lacking integrity.

    A genuine offer is made. And all are already lost. God had nothing to do with it. You can't blame mankind's sin on God!
     
    #13 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2017
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  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yes it is. Choosing not to save them or leaving them to their sin. Same thing.
     
    #14 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God chose to save those who were condemned in sin. The rest were already condemned.

    If God is sinning by not choosing to save everyone, then He is sinning by choosing to only save believers. He could save them, but He chooses not to, so it is His fault they go to hell because He chose to only save those who believe.

    It seems to me you have exactly the same problem. God could save all. He chose not to save all. It is His fault those He did not choose are in Hell.

    I don't think so.

    Again, show me ONE time in the bible that election or predestination is to a negative consequence. Just ONE.
     
    #15 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2017
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I didn't say that nor imply it. Not sure where that came from.
     
    #16 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2017
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  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am pointing to the fact that your objection to election also applies to believing.

    If God chooses to only save the elect, and passes over the non-elect, you say He predestined the non-elect to hell. The same holds true to belief. If God chooses to only save believers, and passes over non-believers, He, according to you, has predestined the non-believers to hell.

    You can't have it both ways. Either God is able to save all and is free to chose according to the good pleasure of His will, or He is incapable of saving all.
     
    #17 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2017
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #18 Iconoclast, Sep 19, 2017
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Rm

    Why does RM always get it wrong ?, let's look-
    .
    Here he tries to apply his own thinking to the issue, however he disregards years of study of the issue, he simply discounts it...saying
    [is effectually double]...:Cautious


    .
    Next he ignores the biblical use of the term predestined, as if there are multitudes who wanted to trust Jesus, but somehow they are not allowed:Cautious

    No it is clearly different:Cautious


    this exists only in the mind of RM:Cautious

    And there you have it...Rm's blueprint for error.:Frown
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Sep 19, 2017
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  20. CJC

    CJC New Member

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    Is this what you all or saying

    Arminianism
    The belief that God gave man the choice to be Saved or not but man has the ability to lose their Salvation.

    Calvinism
    The belief that God chooses who is saved and man can not lose their Salvation.

    ?
     
    #20 CJC, Sep 19, 2017
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