For SDA's on Sunday worship

Bob said -- The term for "regard" in the first instance makes it's meaning very clear. To regard is to "observe the day". So "One man Regards One day while another Regards Every Day" .. "One man Observes one Day above another while another man Observes Every Day..".

Now obviously there are a list of days to "observe" given in Lev 23 and there is no Hebrew law telling them to "Observe every day of the year" but to "Observe every day of the religious calendar". That means that we have some that are "observing One day" of that Lev 23 list and another that is "observing ALL of them".

What you don't get - is someone "observing NONE of them".

Actually - "observe" as in "keep" and "regard as Holy" in the same way that we find regard used for the things of God, for man having regard for God Himself.

And clearly "One man Regards one day above another" --- the meaning is clear even by today's less than precise standards. Regarding one ABOVE another is to KEEP it, to honor it ABOVE some other day.

There is absolutely no way to escape it.

And once you have the obvious point above in view - it becomes devastating when we observes that the only alternative is "BUT another man REGARDS ALL of them" instead of the much sought after "but another man regards NONE of them".

And as already pointed out - the ONLY list of days that they had to pick from -- "to Regard as Hohly" are already given in Lev 23.

Yes that is the "missing part".

Instead of saying "all days of the week are the same - not one to be regarded holy or kept above another"-- What actually have is NO reference to the WEEK at all (or even to Sabbath in Rom 14).

Instead we have "One man Regards ONE day Above Another" as in keeps ONE day holy above anonther -- no limit to the week, no selecting of Sabbath or even of allowing people to be as God and make their own weekly holy days.

Then we get "But another Regards ALL of the days" ALL of the Holy days in "the list" (and as we noted - there is only one list - it is found in Lev 23).

True enough. It is not "limited to JUST God's Sabbath Commandment" or even limited to JUST the first 3 commandment or even limited to the Law of Love. So including the Sabbath in this unlimited - unbounded principle that is valid PRE-cross just as it is Post-Cross.. is easy for all to do.

Hmm -- pretty convincing. You got me.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.


Matt 5:17-22 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Now how exactly does this mean that we shouldn’t observe the Sabbath of the fourth commandment again? If this is so, why did Christ who fulfilled the law observe the Sabbath?

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

“I'm sorry, but something that will become so important will not hinge on something drawn on such inferential means.”

Almost the entire book of Revelation is written in such a manner, that only those who study it diligently, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can hope to understand it.
It is filled with inferences from the scriptures which help explain the meaning of the book itself. The greater ones knowledge of the entire bible, the greater their ability to understand the book of Revelation.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Thess, just thought that I would do you a favor and bring this thread back on topic.

Here is a LINK to an SDA site that "CLEARLY" says that "Sunday" worship IS the "Mark of the Beast". (Did I get the CAPS and "quotes" right? )

http://www.lightministries.com/id519.htm

"For anyone to then claim that the "mark" of the beast is anything other than Sunday worship, is deceived and is leading souls to destruction."


BTW, you have to really search this site to understand that it is an SDA site. They label themselves as a "nondenominational" group, but if you look around a bit you find out that they are SDA.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the SDA doesn't want potential prospects to know exactly who they are until you are interested in them. After they get you hooked, then they pull out the cult stuff like Ellen White.

 

The 27 Fundamental beliefs are ALL published and ALL on the Web - we have already shown that.

In fact SDAs typically do a series of 27 studies 2 or 3 of which go in to the study of the Mark of the Beast - in "great" detail.

Ignorance and speculation about "what they might be doing" as a replacement for actually "looking into it" may substitute for dead victims like the Albigenses who can not answer to the myths and fabrications -- but it does not work "in real life".

Does that "ever" sink in?

In Christ,

Bob

 

How do you account for my above link?

 

Hello trying2understand

The following is from the link that you gave.


So the mark or seal of the God of heaven is worshiping the Lord on Saturday--His Sabbath--according to God's fourth commandment. In doing this, it is a sign that we show that we love, serve, and worship God. While the mark or seal of the Beast is worshiping on Sunday--the day of the sun or of the Blazing Star or Lucifer, his sabbath, after it is enforced. In doing this, it is a sign that we show that we love, serve, and worship the Beast and Lucifer.


Again, there is no mark of the beast, until the worship is forced upon all. This is SDA teaching.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Kam - Thess is not inclined to "details" -- thanks for taking the time to zero in on that quote from his web site reference and pointing out what he is trying to ignore in his own link.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of course, before the Cross it was still in effect, and everybody knew it. But Jews reject that the Messiah came and did anything, so of course they think nothing has changed. As I said, the Pope is not our authority. Neither understands the spirit of the Law.

That's not what I said. For one thing, the change of covenants occured after Malachi. And for 27 whole books after that to not say that it was still mandated, you must wonder if it was still so important. No one "tells a story" like that, but with all the gentiles coming into the Church who had never kept a Sabbath, and no commandment for them to keep the Sabbath, it's clear that it was not mandated to them.

Yeah, why does he say "according to the commandment" for that, but you never hear "they honored their parents according to the commandment", "they gave up their gods and burned their idols or magic books according to the commandment". Yes, it was still a "commandment", (something that was once commanded), but that does
not mean it was still in effect, or always in effect for everyone. But the fact that it was singled out as "THE commandment", was because it was something specifically associated with the Law of Moses, and not universally kept by the readers.

Then what does "eating blood" or "things strangled", or even "fornication" have to do with that? (as well as idols). The issue is "the manner of Moses", and which commandments are retained for Gentile converts. As I said, Sabbath and any dietary restrictions definitely would have been included here if they were still binding.

Passages like this do not say they are KEEPING the Sabbath. The Jews kept the Sabbath, Paul and others preached in the synagogues, when they woprshipped there --on the Sabbath. These are the passages used the most to prove that all the Christians "kept" the Sabbath, but "met on" or "learned on" is not the same as KEPT in the sense of sundown to sundown, no work, etc. This is not mentioned for all of the church; only in passing for Jews.

There is NO "LIST of days to pick from" in the passage. You can't say "well, this word means 'regard as holy' over there, so it must mean that over here, so this means there is this "list of days" that one chooses out of. Once again, this would mean that perhaps one would keep one of the annual festivals and not the others or the weekly, or some combination. The point of the passage is that there were no "days" mandated to Christians, unless they themselves voluntarily decide to keep it "to the Lord". So you have to interpret the words according to the context, not as it fits a doctrine you are trying to read into it. Else, problems like the above arise.

You're adding words to the text! You're putting an interpretation on it. You're telling me there is no "week" mentioned there, but then you're adding, essentially, a year ("list") of "holy days". But that's not mentioned either. But if you let the passage stand alone, then, what you're calling "Regarding NONE of them" would be "regarding all days alike", (all days of the week, year, or whenever) or no day being more special over another. That's what the passage says without adding a "list" "of them".

[ November 20, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

So this means that all the sacrifices are still in effect, a;onng with circumcision, the annual sabbaths, and the rest of the Temple rituals. Obviously, none of us are living according to the Old Testamant. Christ spoke that before He died, so it was all still binding on Israel. Once He died then a lot of things changed, and "the commandments" now moved from the letter to the spirit, so all those scriptures about "commandments" you and others cite proves nothing about this matter of the letter of the Sabbath commandment. Read before, where I exerpted from my page on this regarding the commandments today. They were ALL changed by Christ, in one way or another.

Still, you can't just go casually reading things into it, claiming "inference". Scripture interprets scripture, and much of Revelation's symbolism can be deciphered from the OT and Gospel(Christ's words) sources it draws from.

 

Prophecy lover that I am, I quite frequently find material on future events, like this nice glossy pamphlet called "Born Free! Liberty: How Long?" I found a couple of weeks ago. They look like any prophecy-oriented evangelical writing, and only toward the end, when you see that the whole end-time conspiracy of evil will be Sunday worship, do you realize that it is another Adventist publication. There is no mention of the SDA at all, or even any of its more familiar publiching venues, such as Review and Herald (And unless you knew something about the SDA you would have no idea that was by them). Just a new ministry name "Project Restore". I've seen many others, and on some of them, you read intersting stuff about the coming antichrist, just to find that these were all excerpts of White's The Great Controversy.

 

Chap. 11

We will now examine the changes that have taken place between the old and new covenants in relation to the law, and its fulfillment in our lives. As discussed in an earlier chapter, the law was given to the children of Israel straight from the mouth of God. Unquestionably the purpose of presenting the law in this manner was to leave a deep impression upon the children of Israel regarding the sacredness of God's law. The law is a revelation of God's character, it is perfect as He is.

PSA 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
PSA 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
PSA 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
PSA 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Again, as has already been stated, the purpose of the law is to convict the soul of sin, in order that one might repent and be converted. This was the function of the law during the old covenant era, and is still the function of the law in this new covenant era. The conversion experience involves being changed from a law breaking non believer, to a law abiding and firm believer. During the old covenant era, the best way to establish the law within your heart was to dwell upon it. Thus the old testament writers, inspired by the Lord, admonished Israel to do so continuously.

DEU 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
DEU 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
DEU 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
DEU 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


PSA 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
PSA 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.


PSA 119:97 O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
PSA 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
PSA 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
PSA 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

These are just a few of the many examples of old testament scriptures admonishing us to dwell upon the law of the Lord. Through the law, one could see the righteous character of God, an example of how they should be. Necessarily then, the more one dwelt upon the law, the more one became like the one who's character the law represented. It was not the moral law alone that revealed God's character to the world, but also the sanctuary services that revealed God's love and mercy for the world. The law revealed God's character, and condemned ours. "ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" The sanctuary services and sacrifices revealed God's mercy through His plan of salvation for us.
The old covenant believer dwelt upon the law so that its precepts might become a part of their character. At the same time, the more they dwelt upon the law, the more they were convicted of the sinfulness of their condition. Thus they were lead to the sanctuary with their sacrifices and learned about complete dependents upon God. Hopefully they would understand that the Messiah was the one who would ultimately pay the price for their sins. Unfortunately, as was made obvious by the reception that Christ received from His people when He came to them as their Messiah, most did not understand this most important truth. Even during the old covenant dispensation, God expressed His desire for the sacrifice of obedience over the sacrifice of animals representing Christ. This revealed that those who truly accepted what God was going to do for them through His Son, were to express that acceptance more by the sacrifice of their own wills to that of God's, than by the sacrifice of animals representing the Savior.

PSA 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
PSA 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
PSA 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


SA1 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

These same principles still apply today. However, the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ has fully established things that the written law and symbolic services of the sanctuary could only point to. Christ was and is the fulfillment of all that the sanctuary services pointed to, and was and is the fulfillment of the written moral law, the ten commandments. In Him these old covenant types are done away with. Not because they are no longer relevant, but because they are fulfilled and complete in Him. All that they were established to bring about in us, has been fully established in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
MAT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
MAT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Nothing has been really done away with, rather it has been fulfilled. All things come together and are made complete in Christ. Apart from Him there is nothing. Christ was the center of everything about the old covenant, apart from Him all the laws and ceremonies would have amounted to nothing. Apart from Christ, the nation of Israel would have amounted to nothing, in fact it would never have even existed.

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOH 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
JOH 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.........-

JOH 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
JOH 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
of God, even to them that believe on his name:
JOH 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
JOH 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Here the Apostle John is trying to show his brethren that the God that they worshipped, the one who created all things was made flesh and dwelt among them. The one that they all went to the temple to worship, the one who's presents was in the temple and that made it holy, was here in the flesh and dwelling among them. They needed to understand this all important truth, and so do we. The law of God was fulfilled in His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. The only way it will ever be fulfilled in us will be when Christ Himself dwells within us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is true that because of Christ's sacrifice, we can now come boldly before the throne of God to receive forgiveness of our sins. However, just as during the old covenant it was said" to obey is better than sacrifice", even more so by the establishment of the new covenant it is better to obey than to offer sacrifice.
Christ's coming in our flesh makes this more possible than ever before. In fact, the possibility of it has been established by Christ taking on our flesh and nature. Those believers of the old covenant, only looked forward to the promise of these things. We have the privilege of entering into the establishment of these things in and through Jesus Christ our Lord. Why should we be content to continually present Christ's sacrifice for our sins before the Father, when the way has been made for us to enter into Christ's experience and sacrifice our own wills to that of the Fathers with Christ on the cross. As previously stated in relation to the old covenant system, to sacrifice your own will to that of the Fathers through obedience, is better than sacrifices and offerings. Christ is our forerunner, He has prepared the way for us.

HEB 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
HEB 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
HEB 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
HEB 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
HEB 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
HEB 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

He takes away the first that He may establish the second. It was good that by faith those of the old covenant could sacrifice animals representing Christ for their sins, and receive forgiveness. It is also good that by faith we can come to God and lift up to the Father the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf for the forgiveness of our sins, and receive it. However, Christ established much more than this when he came in our flesh, he established the possibility of the righteousness of God being fulfilled within us.

ROM 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
ROM 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
ROM 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
ROM 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The sin, or offence, of one man brought judgment upon all men to condemnation. Adam was the father of all mankind, and he sinned against God. Since all of humanity are descendants of Adam, all have inherited his fallen, sinful nature. We were all in Adam when he fell in the garden. This is the situation that Christ came to correct. Christ is the second Adam. He is the second head of the human race, and all who choose to do so can be in Him. Just as the sin of one, Adam, brought condemnation upon all men, so the righteousness of one, Jesus Christ, brings justification upon all men. We are born in Adam, we can be born again in Christ.
Verse nineteen of chapter five says that just as one mans disobedience made many sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Christ's purpose for becoming a man was to make many righteous. So how does Christ make us righteous? The key is found in verse two of chapter six. " How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein?" The Apostle then goes on to say-

ROM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
ROM 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
ROM 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
ROM 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Christ became a man, one of us. As a man he lived a perfectly righteous life before God the father. This perfectly righteous life lead the Lord Jesus Christ to the cross. The crucifixion was the climax of Christ's perfect righteousness. As the Apostle clearly points out in the above verses, those who are baptized into Christ Jesus are baptized into this experience, Christ's death. As all were in Adam, so now all are also in Christ on the cross. Having died with Him, we are now justified before God, for the penalty for sin is death. As verse seven says, " he that is dead is freed from sin." The one who has entered into this experience by faith, has sacrificed their own will to that of God's. This is the sacrifice that God prefers, to obey is better than sacrifice. How can one be born again without first dying? How can anyone be a new creature if they are still the old one?

CO2 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
CO2 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
CO2 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
CO2 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

All were in Christ when He died. Those who accept this truth and enter into this experience, not only die with Christ, but are made new creatures. These new creatures no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them, the Lord Jesus Christ. They sacrifice their own will for the will of God. Again this is the sacrifice that God desires from us. Instead of continually offering up Christ to the Father for the forgiveness of our sins, it is better to offer ourselves to God the Father through Christ Jesus by dying with Him that He may live within us. Since Christ was the fulfillment of the law, His life in us will be the fulfillment of the law within us. This is a spiritual experience that could not be fully entered into, or understood, until the establishment of the new covenant in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now instead of dwelling upon the written law as a means of becoming more like God, we can enter into the experience of the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law. Dying with Christ is the continual experience of surrendering our own will to that of the Fathers. Only when we have offered our selves to God in Christ, can Christ live within us.

CO2 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
CO2 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

The new covenant relation to the law is a spiritual experience that is completely centered in Christ. The type, or written law, was fulfilled in the antitype, Christ. The law was and is a revelation of God's character. Christ was God in the flesh, and therefore the fulfillment of the written law. Since God united himself to mankind through our own likeness and flesh, our relation to the law is now in Him through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. While we should in no wise disregard the written law, it is imperative that we enter into the experience of the cross, as a means of the fulfillment of the law. By this one righteous act, the demands of the written law are met, that is the death of the sinner, and the fulfillment of the law within us as new creatures in Christ Jesus. This is the new covenant experience. It is a spiritual one that is entered into by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for us. Again all things come together and are made complete in Christ. This could be accomplished only by God Himself becoming one of us, taking our nature and flesh to the cross.

ACT 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
ACT 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
ACT 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
ACT 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
ACT 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. If you wish to be made whole, and complete, then you must be in Christ, and have Christ within you. We were created in the image of God, whole. This is the condition that Christ has restored us to, if we are only willing to enter into this new covenant relationship with Him.




Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Eric responds

Then clearly "Keeping the commandments" as mentioned in John 14 - Before the Cross - To the Jewish followers of Christ - who Had the written Word of God in their hands - would have been a "clear teaching" - not a vague confusing idea to them NOR would it have told them that the Sabbath was no longer in the 10 commandments.

Eric said

#1. That is "proof out of the void" of what you don't find in scripture.

#2. As you just admitted above - the reference in John 14 before the Cross HAD to include the Sabbath commandment and in Luke 23 the fact that they "Rested on the Sabbath according to the Commandment" makes it "crystal clear".

The idea of "deleted because not repeated" fails in the Gospels.

In Acts 15 they are required to observe the Levitical laws about eating meat with blood in it.

In Acts 15 the argument is made although they do not need to become circumcised Jews they do need to hear the scripture read every Sabbath. Indeed -it is important for the people of God to hear and obey the Word of God - the scriptures.

Eric asks

Hmmm. So having the reference to "THE commandment" instead of "ONE of the Commandments" was Luke's way of telling his readers "This is THE comamdment that we ignore"??

I don't follow your point.

Eric asks --

Eating things strangled, eating meat offerred to idols and moral purity were the "problems of culture" that Gentiles had to deal with when becoming a Christian. IF Acts 15 were an "exhaustive list" then it FAILED to reference "Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself". If failed to reference "No murder". If failed to reference "No taking God's name in vain"..etc etc.

The notion that Acts 15 is the exhaustive list for Gentiles fails on those grounds.

Eric said

You missed the point of Acts 13 - there we find that the Gentiles are accepting the truth AND the GENTILES are asking that Paul return "Sabbath after Sabbath" to continue speaking to them - EVEN though the JEWS were rejecting him. You are seeing "GENTILE" evangelism in Acts 13 - being done "Sabbath after Sabbath" even in the case where Jews are not being reached at all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Eric said --

True the passage does not say that it is speaking about the list of Holy Days that the JEWS had from Lev 23 and it does not say that it is just talking about which day of the 7-day Creation week - week that you go to church on.

However the "context" of Jew and Gentile and the fact that the Jews DID have a LIST of days given to them in Lev 23 - makes the point.

Eric said --

All "Agree" that the "Context" determines the meaning. The way the author uses the term In the chapter is clear "One man REGARDS ONE day ABOVE another" - this is clearly having "Regard" as in regard for the observance of that day.

If we simply STAY with that meaning already established in the chapter - where all agree - then the point about "another REGARDS EVERY DAY" is equally clear.

Impossible to miss.

Eric said --

 

I neither said it was "vague", nor that it was "no longer in the 10 commanmdments". Just that its application for today has changed, just like the other commandments as sampled in the Sermon on the mount. If "murder" is magnified to "hatred", and "adultery" to even "lusting", then what would keeping one day of the week holy to God magnify to? "You shall keep EVERY day of the week holy to Me!" Of course, we cannot not work 7 days a week, but then resting in Jesus, being His witnesses, and walking in the spirit (purifying our lives) is how to keep every day holy, and the mandatory "no work" rule was the the shadow of the Christian life, just like the sacrifices, annual feasts, etc. were a shadow of Christ. It was to physically/mentally get/keep people focused on God for a definite time every week, but now we have His Spirit to keep us focused on Him. I'm sorry, but there is no command to cease all work for any specific days in the NT.

Not "deleted" or "ignored", just changed in application. It's the old physical "letter" application you insist on that is not continued in the NT.

NO, they are required to retain that ONE part of the levitical laws, which actually were apart of the Noahide laws that were always madated to all mankind well before the Levitcal code was given to Israel. Look at v.28: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things".

I didn't say it was an "exhaustive list", I said it involved physical things, regarding one's own body --like circumcision. (Murder is what you do to someone else's body, so is not in question, and most of the other commandments are spiritual, and thus not in question) Dietary laws and physical Sabbath rest fall into the same category, and would have been mentioned here if they were still in effect. Once again, this was just a return to the pre-Mosaic Noahide code (that yes, pagan gentile culture did violate, and had to be reminded of).

I don't know why I didn't mention this before (probably rushed), but since you dwell so much on this "ONE day" being the weekly Sabbath being "regarded" (kept) over a list of other days, then look what the next verse says: "He who regards the day, regards it to the Lord, and he who regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. Even if this is one day out of a list of days, it says that one may not regard it, and this still be "unto the Lord". Really, if what you were saying was true, it should just come out and say "One man regards all of the [holy] days alike, and one regards only one day (and this is still vague as to which). Let him who observes the other days observes them to the Lord, and he who does not observe them..."

That's still not KEEPing a Sabbath. There was no competing day, so the Gentiles went by the day that religious meeting were being held. If you insist on this as proof of mandatory Sabbath observance, then Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor.16:2 prove that it was changed to Sunday sometime afterwards (probably when they started holding their own meetings apart from the synagogue). Some even argue that Christ Himself began to set the weekly Sunday in motion when He appeared a week after His first appearance, and the disciples were already gathered together.
The arguments are exactly the same, and they have just as strong a case as you, and I go for neither. They are just passing mentions of days when people were gathered together for one reason or another, not establishing, changing, maintaining, etc. anything, and neither side should try to read into these passages anything that is not commanded there.

[ November 23, 2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

I never said that the case of "observing ONE day over another" in Rom 14 is in fact observing the 7th day memorial of creation made a holy day by God for mankind at Creation week. I think it is picking one of the annual feast days of Lev 23 and "regarding" with observance that day ABOVE the others in the list of annual Sabbaths.

I simply stated that from the standpoint of those who oppose Creation-memorial-Sabbath-observance - they are viewing that as being exactly what Sabbath keepers are doing on God's Creation Sabbath and possibly - exactly what other Christian groups are doing on the traditional-Sunday observance.


But as for the list of Lev 23 - the annual Sabbaths

"He who regards the day, regards it to the Lord, and he who regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it.

It says that selecting one from among that list - is ok - or selecting all from the list - just fine also. It says of the one that selects one and not the other - that his selection is still a form of valid worship and service to God. It does not list someone that "selects none".

In fact it says "One Regards One day ABOVE another while another Regards EVERY day".

Which as noted - is every day in that ONE and ONLY list given in Lev 23.

What is fascinating to me - is that when you leave the Lev 23 context of the ONE list of annual Sabbaths -- then many Sunday-keepers view themselves as "observing that ONE day above the others in honor of tradition" - in a very similar way as Sabbath observers view themselves observing God's Sabbath commandment above other days of the week. By arguing AGAINST that day as you are doing - you are in fact arguing AGAINST any validity at all in keeping Sunday OTHER than your own personal whimisical choice. In which case the whimsical choice of God's Holy day given as a memorial of Creation and set within His 10 commmandments should be "almost" as likely for your group to "whimsically select".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Notice that it is the gentiles in Acts 13 that are insisting that they be taught the word of God on the NEXT Sabbath. The idea that "they were meeting then anyway" beggs the question - why werent they meeting on the NEXT DAY - Sunday once they started accepting the message of Paul?

Why skip Sunday and go for Sabbath after Sabbath ONCE the divide is made - the Gentiles are accepting the message and the Jews rejecting it?

There is only one explanation for Sabbath AFTER Sabbath evangelistic meetings that consistently skips Sunday - and is only directed at Gentiles.

Kind of scarry - huh?

None of those examples show "Sunday after Sunday" meetings of any kind.

The ONLY example you have of weekly observance - weekly gathering and Bible teaching is - Sabbath after Sabbath in Acts 13 along with "Every Sabbath" in Acts 15 - and of course you have Isaiah 66 and "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before me to worship".. These are all you "sequence" lists for post-cross observances.

So are you saying that the disciples WEREN't gathered in the upper room daily - but ONLy came back for a Sunday meeting? Did you find that in the Bible?

Is there anything like the Acts 13 "asking that Christ return and speak to them the following Sunday"??

Is there anything like the Acts 15 "Every Sabbath" so we have "Every Sunday"?

Is there anything like "The Son of Man is Lord of the week-day-one so week-day-one is the Lord's day"?

Is there anything like "From week-day-one to week-day-one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Isaiah?

I mean - do you have "any sequence" for week-day-one? How about a "name" for "week-day-one"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Still, it says nothing about annual days. It just mentions "days" in general. The Jews kept days, the gentiles either kept no days, or had their own festivals. Nowhere are they ever instructed to adopt the Jews' days, but rather Paul is telling us here that whatever days you do observe, observe unto the Lord. (BTW, you keep emphasizing that is not telling us we could "keep none", but then if these were only annual days in question here, and you believe we don't have to keep any of them, then it is telling us we could "keep none", so this is a non-issue)

When I said "they were meeting then anyway", I meant the Jews, not the gentiles. Paul taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath, so the gentiles asked him to TEACH the "next" sabbath (as opposed to not teaching them), not let us keep the next sabbath as opposed to some other day Paul was considering. The gentiles apparently didn't expect for Paul to break his routine and meet specially with them on another day, so basically, it is "WHEN you come next Sabbath, please continue to teach us".

I'm not pitching Sunday, as I did say at the end of the last post, so I agree with you on that. I was just making a comparison of how both sides read a command that is not there.

 

In revelation 13:16-17 says and He causeth all , both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to recevie a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

clearly the mark of the beast is a mark put on your hand or fore head and you cant buy anything or sell anything. the mark is not what day of the week that you worship on. it a visable mark that you can see and with out this mark you wont be able to do much of anything.

Yours in Christ,
dawna

 

No doubt Dawna - it has to be some paper or mark or contract license etc. But on what "basis" did you get it?

As a business owner I have a tax id - that allows me to do certain things. Maybe I have a license to sell cars or a license to hunt or fish. That does not give me the mark of the beast unless I have to sign a document that relates to a point of obedience/morals/faith/worship to get it.

Touching the grass does not make you a sinner or a wicked person. But if you are one of the Hebrews on the planes of Durah in the time of Babylon when all are supposed to bow to the golden image - then suddenly bending down to touch the grass at a "certain time" is very "very" meaningful.

In Christ,

Bob