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For the incredulous

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Mar 6, 2002.

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  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    For those of you who expressed incredulity that I was a member of First Baptist Atlanta, here's a document you might find interesting:

    My Baptismal Certificate

    I was actually a member there for many, many years - and when I first heard the call to professional ministry, Dr. Stanley was the example I wanted to follow.

    Joshua

    P.S. Do you think he'd want to take the baptism back now? :D
     
    #1 Rev. Joshua, Mar 6, 2002
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I never doubted you. ;)
    Are you going to have a wallet-size version made so you can carry it around? [​IMG]

    [ March 06, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
    #2 rsr, Mar 6, 2002
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Joshua, we have had minor agreements on issues and myriad of disagreement. I never doubted you had been baptized and a member at FBC Atlanta.

    What I have wondered about is why you classify yourself as a "Baptist" when you simply do not believe the doctrinal positions the way any historic Baptist Confession of Faith (use London or Philadelphia or New Hampshire) state them.

    Isn't there another label that good folks like you, who are far from "mainstream" Baptists (I know some in the liberal ABC, too, and some in the BGC Baptist General Conference) that you would prefer?

    Our extremely liberal "baptist" church in Owatonna, MN, still goes by First Baptist; another liberal group has since dropped "baptist" from the name.

    Isn't this a viable option for a minority?
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Mar 7, 2002
  4. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Bob,

    I believe deeply in the traditional baptist distinctives (as defined in particular by Shurden). I haven't looked at any of the early confessions in a while, but I don't remember any serious areas of disagreement with them. I am a graduate of a baptist seminary, ordained by a baptist church, and endorsed by a national baptist body. I have no reason to believe that my beliefs are any less baptist than yours.

    Traditionally, there has been great diversity among baptists. There continues to be such, although perhaps with less cooperation now than in years past.

    Joshua
     
    #4 Rev. Joshua, Mar 7, 2002
  5. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Is it just me or others have the same problem? I can't see the certificate, but get the following notice instead:

    :(
     
    #5 Barnabas H., Mar 7, 2002
  6. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Ack, I'm getting it now too. Something seems to be going on with Jumpline, my web host. I can't get them by phone either. I'll keep trying.
    Joshua
     
    #6 Rev. Joshua, Mar 7, 2002
  7. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Bob, an additional note on baptist confessions. If I remember correctly, the New Hampshire confession was not even ratified by the New Hampshire association for which it was written. Baptists have a long history of rejecting confessions in favor of cooperation.

    Joshua
     
    #7 Rev. Joshua, Mar 7, 2002
  8. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Maybe it's a sign, Joshua! (Man! That was TOO easy! LOL) :D

    - Clint
     
    #8 Clint Kritzer, Mar 7, 2002
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Man, now you really confuse me! No Baptists I know would say that! Seriously. Fidelity to truth will always displace fellowship or cooperation.

    Guess I am too much of a "northern" Baptist! We fought against the liberals and lost; hence, the ifb movement today is 80% in the old NBC. Cooperation led to rank liberalism in the seminaries, dead Gospel-less churches, and a whole variety of practices that turn the stomach of historic Baptists.

    Joshua, think you hang with a different crowd. But remember, it is a small minority of Baptists in that crowd. Serious.
     
    #9 Dr. Bob, Mar 8, 2002
  10. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    The link has been repaired! Boy that was frustrating.

    Joshua
     
    #10 Rev. Joshua, Mar 8, 2002
  11. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Man, now you really confuse me! No Baptists I know would say that! Seriously. Fidelity to truth will always displace fellowship or cooperation.</font>[/QUOTE]Bob, actually I think you are in the minority here - or at least you were until the Southern Baptist Convention shifted its understanding of cooperation toward one requiring strict orthodoxy.

    Nevertheless, every baptist historian I know (Buddy Shurden, Bill Leonard, Leon McBeth, Glenn Hinson, Martin Marty) would say that baptists have traditionally emphasized cooperation over doctrinal unity.

    The CBF has 11 partner seminaries and thousands of churches. If we are the minority now, it is a sizeable one. Besides, I thought you IFB types thought being in the minority made you right ;) .

    Joshua
     
    #11 Rev. Joshua, Mar 8, 2002
  12. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

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    "Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:
    Baptists have a long history of rejecting confessions in favor of cooperation."

    When you mix error and truth, you get error. When you put cooperation in place of truth, you get error. That is how the SBC and many of other Baptist lost control of their schools and printing arms. They wanted to cooperate with the liberals and they lost, I guess you could say the SBC has been fighting back to get back what it lost.
    You mix used motor oil and spring water, you get bad water as well as bad oil, you mixs truth with error you get error.
     
    #12 Bob Alkire, Mar 8, 2002
  13. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Bob, traditionally most baptists have recognized that there will always be some error in our theology, and that the nature of baptist polity is such that there is likely to be considerable diversity among baptist congregations.

    The TRUTH that we universally affirm is the gospel. Beyond that, there does not need to be universal orthodoxy for cooperation.

    Joshua
     
    #13 Rev. Joshua, Mar 8, 2002
  14. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Hum, then it must be my computer, 'cause I still can't open the link. :(
     
    #14 Barnabas H., Mar 8, 2002
  15. Vicki

    Vicki New Member

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    Barnabas:

    I don't think it is you,.....I can't open the link either :D

    God bless,
    --Vicki
     
    #15 Vicki, Mar 8, 2002
  16. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    *Grumble....Grumble...Jumpline...Grumble*

    Ugh.

    They were up...now perhaps they're down again. *grumble*

    I'll give 'em a call.

    Thanks

    Joshua
     
    #16 Rev. Joshua, Mar 8, 2002
  17. Vicki

    Vicki New Member

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    Hey,.......the link works now!!!! :D Aren't computers tempermental sometimes? :cool:

    God bless,
    --Vicki
     
    #17 Vicki, Mar 9, 2002
  18. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Wow, Joshua, I didn't know you had that in you! [​IMG] BTW I was finally able to open the link this morning - thanks.

    Incidentally, a baptismal certificate doesn't prove much of a person's spiritual standing - only that he/she was immersed. I believe it was Moody who came across a drunk, laying in the gutter, and when he has seen the Evangelist passing by he jumped up and said "Mr. Moody, I am one of your converts. You personally baptized me!" To which the Evangelist replied, "I am sorry to hear that. It sure wasn't the Holy Spirit!" (This is not to imply anything about your conversion, only to point out the worth of a piece of paper) ;)

    [ March 09, 2002, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
     
    #18 Barnabas H., Mar 9, 2002
  19. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Barnabas, you'll get no argument from me there. It is, however, confirmation for those who expressed surprise at my long time membership in Charles Stanley's church.

    It's also a source of amusement to me to have Charles Stanley's signature on my baptismal certificate.

    Joshua
     
    #19 Rev. Joshua, Mar 9, 2002
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Josh,

    I am curious. Would you still want to follow Dr. Stanley's example? Why or why not?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #20 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 9, 2002
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