Featured Foreknowledge/election and honest invitation

Yes we have free will.

 

No, you do not.

 

Ceegan,
Welcome to the BB.
The bible does not say that God has purposed to save all humanity. Salvation while worldwide in scope is not designed to save everybody.
There is no free will...only self will in scripture.we make choices according to our nature. Being free in Christ we are free to serve.

Ceegan...all men have turned away from God...psalm 14:1-3.....it is God who seeks his elect sheep...He seeks and save His sheep...jn 10...he finds all of the sheep the Father gives Him.each and everyone will be found of Him.

This false idea is based on the wrong statements that proceed it.God did not force man to sin.

 

:laugh:
Please explain this passage.
Jere. 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

That looks a whole lot like free will to me. In fact that says God did not even think much less predestine it.

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Free will in both the NEW and OLD Testament.

 

Iconoclast What is your understanding as the difference between free will and self will?

 

Scripturally men are described as selfwilled.......their natures are bound by sin. They are willing bondslaves[servants- doulas] of sin

here is YLT;
16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

17 and thanks to God, that ye were servants of the sin, and -- were obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up;

18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.

19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness -- to the lawlessness, so now present your members servants to the righteousness -- to sanctification,

20 for when ye were servants of the sin, ye were free from the righteousness,
21 what fruit, therefore, were ye having then, in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those [is] death.

22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord


Freeatlast---- in heaven we will be only free to serve...sinlessly...we will not have the ability or will to sin in heaven. Our Nature will be perfected in holiness

Got to drive some more...heading to amarillo, then pueblo and denver..lol be back later...

 

But what is your understanding of the difference between free will and self will?
Also while I like the idea that we will not be able to sin what scripture are you basing that on and how do you explain satan and his sin?

 

Predestination is not the subject of our discussion. Free Will is. And neither verse states that the people who did these things had free will.

 

The passages says God commanded them not to do what they did but they did it anyway. Is that not free will?

 

No. It does not even imply free will.

One of the biggest mistakes of non-cals is this erroneous idea that just because God commanded somebody to do something that means that they were most assuredly ABLE to do it.

This is how humans relate to humans. This is not how God Almighty relates to humans.

We take standards by which we judge each other and apply them to Almighty God. It does not work.

God can tell us to do things that it would be sinful for a man to tell us to do.

God can command us- "WORSHIP ME!!"

If a man commanded us- "WORSHIP ME!!" it would sinful and wicked.

It is not sinful and wicked for God to command it. He certainly DOES command it!

And it is not sinful for God to command sinful creatures to do what they cannot do.

He certainly does it hundreds of times in the Bible.

He commands everyone to be perfect as He is perfect. He knows not ONE of us can do that.

The Ten Commandments are not for people who have the ability to keep them. They are for every person on earth and not ONE person on earth can keep them.

MOST of God's commandments are directed at people who CANNOT keep them.

So why does he give them, then?

I'll answer that when you respond.

 

No place does the bible say that the commands cannot be kept. In fact I have known a many a persons who were lost and obeyed the Lord's commands. The Rich Young Ruller is one example. The Lord never questioned his claims, but showed him his deeds were not enough. We have free will to choose good or evil.

 

No you haven't.

You've never known a single lost person who kept God's commandments.

If man could keep all of God's commandments all of his days then man would not need a Savior. To keep God's commandments is to be without sin and if any man says that he is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

The Bible is EXTREMELY clear that "there is NONE that doeth good...NO NOT ONE."

Paul said, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

All the WORLD is guilty before God for breaking the commandments.

Your lost friends are all liars and the truth is not in them if they have duped you into believing that they keep the commandments.

 

Winman, it doesn't appear you are understanding my view. As I said, I agree that God can infallibly know everything (including who believes and who doesn't) and I don't believe that means He determines it.

I disagree that God's knowledge is similar to hindsight, however. I believe it would be better compared to his present sight because He is the eternal "I AM," not the "I WAS" or the "I WILL BE." I believe His is knowledge is like the Present Perfect Tense in the Greek, not the past or future tense of the english.

And where did I ever even suggest 'God can only foretell what he has caused to happen...' I have no idea where that comment came from...

 

If we cannot obey then we would every moment of every day all be doing the same rapes, murder, lies, blasphemes. The reason that does not happen is because we have free will. We can choose to obey as some do. The motive may be wrong but we can do it. That is free will. The rich young ruler is an example.
We all make choices every day. Some choose to obey the commands and some do not. That is free will.

 

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV).

If God is willing that all should repent and be saved, then why isn't everyone going to repent and be saved? Is our God a doubble-minded and fickle God?

Semantics. Self will IS free will.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." - Romans 10:13 (KJV).

Whosoever calls upon the name of the LORD!

Seems fairly simple to me... Why complicate things? Has God ever said that we have free will, or not?

"Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats." - Leviticus 22:19 (KJV).

 

What you are saying is true, but so is sovereign election.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

It is not either or. It is both and neither one overriding the other.

God’s election and mans freewill.

 

We are all of these things at heart. That's the whole POINT of Romans 3.

 

I agree, but it becomes the issue when some people are drawing hard conclusions based upon HOW they think God sees the future. See my point?

I agree and would never argue otherwise.

Whoa, now I only baulk here because I'm not sure what you mean when you speak of it being 'set.' Set by whom? Saying it is 'set' seems to indicate it is 'determined,' which clearly begs the question of this debate.

Again, that statement assume a linear God, not an infinite one. If God is merely existing at some point in the past while 'seeing a future' then you have limited Him to the abilities of a guy with a crystal ball (in a matter of speaking, I know you don't believe that). And if that is all God is, a linear being who looks through time, then your logic is correct. I reject that premise though. God is not linear. He is not bound by those constructs.

1. You and I don't know 'how it works.' We are speculating. It is mysterious. (Rm 11)

2. Can you even begin to explain how God thinks or sees? If He thinks a thought that he never has thought before then He can't be omniscient (by your linear logic). And if he sees something which He has never seen before then he can't be omnipresent and omniscient (by that same logic), for how does One who has always seen and known that which He is for the first time seeing and knowing? (i.e. the first intent to do evil, the first sun rise, etc)

I think he knows all things at all times. To say he 'sees the future' seems much to limited because it presumes He is in the past looking into a future that He has yet to experience and how is that with God?

So are you arguing for omnisight or omniscience? Is there a difference?

I would word that this way: What he knows, regardless of how, why, when and where he knows it, is true. But does that mean it is determined by Him? His Holiness says 'no.' He doesn't even tempt men to sin.

I believe it is, for it assumes He has yet to experience it. What is the 'future' to an eternally infinite being?

Who says that? He only sees and knows that which is, but does His seeing and knowing equate to determining? Who are we to draw that conclusion? Is God so small that he is unable to create and know outside of a finite deterministic construct?

 

Does God save any who do not serve Him?

"( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" - Romans 9:11.

We are "elected" by our own choice to serve God, who calls out to us to be saved in the blood of Jesus, who wishes that none should perish!

 

No, we are elect by God's sovereign predetermined choice. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. I gave you scripture. We also choose by our own free will, and again scripture shows that. Both are true and neither is forced on the other. All that God elects will freely choose to come.