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Forgiveness/ Unforgiveness

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by drfuss, May 11, 2006.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    This is a falacious argument. How can God chastise us in this life for sin if Jesus already paid the penalty for it? If Jesus paying for a sin doesn't bar God from chastising us in this life, what bars Him from chastising us in the next?

    The judgment that a Christian faces at the judgment seat of Christ (calling it a bema doesn't change anything) is spelled out quite succinctly.

    2 Corinthians 5:10
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    If you do good, you will recieve for it, if you do bad you will recieve for it. There are rewards for iniquity.
     
  2. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    My previous post asked:
    Will God let a person (Christian) with unforgiven sins into heaven? Yes or NO?

    Most responses did not answer yes or no, but a yes was implied along with undesirable consequences. Mima said no, but the further discussion implied a yes. I realize most answers were difficult and unclear because they are driven by the once saved always saved (OSAS) theology. Those who do not believe in OSAS have no difficulty explaining Matt. 6: 14,15.

    IMO, the answer is No. Jesus clearly said if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. Anyone (including Christians) with sins not forgiven will not get into heaven, because sin cannot enter into the presence of God. However, I believe a Christian who will not forgive another will be under such conviction until he comes to the place where he must make a choice to either forgive or stop trusting Jesus as savior. If he continues to refuse to forgive, he has stopped trusting Jesus. If he chooses to stops trusting Jesus as savior, he forfeits his salvation.

    To me, this scripture is very clear and is one of the reasons I do not believe in OSAS. I believe in conditional eternal security, where if one makes a conscious decision to stop trusting Jesus, their salvation is forfeited. God does not accept those who do not trust Jesus as savior.

    Most OSAS Christians believe you must be trusting Jesus as savior when you die to get to heaven. So do I. Both OSAS and conditional eternal security believe works and performance have nothing to do with salvation. Both also believe trusting Jesus as savior is required when you die to get to heaven. From a practical point of view, the difference is a “play on words”

    .Peace

    drfuss
     
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Friends,

    Interesting discussion. I like the remarks of
    MRCoon:
    ______________________________________________
    If we confess our sins he will forgive us and separate (forget) our sin so as not to interfere with our father-child relationship.
    ______________________________________________

    I would modify this statement because it is not
    necessary to "confess" our sins to maintain our
    "relationship" ... but it is necessary to keep
    our "fellowship" with the Father.

    Because of cases like Ananias and Sapphira and
    the warning in Rev.2:22-23 that God will cast some into great tribulation and "kill" them if
    they do not repent of adultery, I think the
    warning of Matt.6:14 is another instance of the
    loss of blessing in a Believer's life.

    In other words, the "if" in Matt.6:14 is not as critical as that of Heb.6:4-6 where the writer
    indicates a condition that is assumed and really
    "contrary to fact" since forgiveness would
    require Christ to die again!

    This text in Matthew does not even consider the
    necessity of Christ to die "again" since the one who sins may be disciplined, even to the point of death.

    IOW, Jesus does not indicate that the need for
    "confession" equals a "condition" for keeping
    one's salvation. Eternal life depends entirely on God ... from start to finish.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Mel writes
    "I think the warning of Matt.6:14 is another instance of the
    loss of blessing in a Believer's life."

    Matt. 6:15 is very specific. Jesus said "but if you do not forgive men their sins, your (heavenly) Father will no forgive your sins."

    I see nothing that talks about Loss of blessing. Are you saying the scripture does not mean what it says? If so, then any belief can be justified by allowing the scripture to not mean what it says.
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    drfuss,

    Scripture does not contradict itself.
    Neither you nor I can "justify" the loss
    of one's salvation based on whether he
    "forgives" another Believer.

    Jesus could have meant what Hebrews
    suggests, i.e., that true Believers do
    not fail to "forgive one another" ...
    just as those who have truly been saved
    cannot "crucify Christ again".

    I am suggesting that the matter of our
    "fellowship" is under scrutiny; not the
    matter of our "relationship". God shows
    He will not even countenance the sins
    that hinder our "fellowship" with Him.

    And that is the reason for the "purging"
    that is coming in the great tribulation.
    Believers must be "worthy of Christ"
    when He comes for His Bride!! I Thess.3:13
    is not a matter of being "worthy in Him"
    but of being "worthy OF Him", i.e., or He
    will "cast some into great tribulation and
    kill them". Rev.2:22-23.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Mel writes:
    “Scripture does not contradict itself. Neither you nor I can "justify" the loss of one's salvation based on whether he "forgives" another Believer.”

    Again, Jesus said “But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt. 6:15. If the Father does not forgive a person’s sins, that person will not get into heaven. Sounds very clear to me.
     
  7. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    IMHO, there have been a number of OSAS driven explanations that say Matt 6: 15 does not mean what it says. These explanations include : loss of blessing, saved but held accountable, saved when we confess our unforgiveness?, Jesus paid once for all our sins regardless of Matt.6:15, etc.

    Having commented on these OSAS explanations, it is fair to ask how do I reconcile conditional eternal security with the scriptures that support OSAS. I make the following assumptions.

    The scriptures were written to believers during a period of persecution. The OSAS supporting scriptures were given to encourage believers to continue trusting Jesus as savior and to ensure them that:
    1. God would keep them through the persecution.
    2. Nothing exterior to themselves could separate them for God.
    3. God foreknew what they would have to go through and would give them required strength.
    4. Their salvation was secure if they continued to trust Jesus as savior.
    5. Etc.

    Granted, the above is a big assumption. However, I choose to make that assumption rather that to believe that a scripture that conflicts with OSAS does not mean what it says. There is a choice to be made on this issue. Making the above assumption is much easier for me than to believe a scripture does not mean what is says because it conflicts with OSAS.

    Hopefully, the OSAS believers will get a better understanding of why other believers cannot accept OSAS.

    As I said in a previous post, both positions believe a person must trust Jesus as savior when they die to get to heaven. From a practical point of view, the different is a “play on words”.

    Peace.

    drfuss
     
  8. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Forgiveness/Unforgiveness

    drfuss,

    Quote:
    ______________________________________________________________
    I believe a Christian who will not forgive another will be under such conviction until he comes to the place where he must make a choice to either forgive or stop trusting Jesus as savior. If he continues to refuse to forgive, he has stopped trusting Jesus. If he chooses to stop trusting Jesus as savior, he forfeits his salvation.
    ______________________________________________________________

    I see two assumptions here that contradict the tenor of Scripture's overall teaching.

    One, it is an assumption to argue that a Christian will "refuse to forgive". God will
    discipline such a one so that he does forgive or the truth that Believers have died to the control of the sinful nature is false. We have been set free from its dominion.

    Two, it is impossible for a Believer to stop trusting Jesus. The burden for my friend
    here is disprove that Jesus meant what He said when He said that He gives unto
    us eternal life and we shall never perish. Jesus will NOT lose one of those God has
    chosen from the foundation of the world.

    I suggest you are building a doctrine on a verse that does not say a Christian might
    stop trusting in Jesus. That is not just theoretical; it utterly contradicts the intent of God's promises of an eternal inheritance for every one whom the Father has given
    to Jesus. John 6:39.

    There is no such thing as a "forfeiture of one's salvation". Even the thought is
    repugnant to the exaltation of God and the honor due His name!! Jesus is doing
    that same thing that Heb.6:4-6 does, i.e., presenting a case contrary to fact in
    order to emphasize the requirement of "forgiving one another". :thumbs:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  9. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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  10. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Forgiveness/Unforgiveness

    drfuss,

    Scripture often makes statements that seem "contrary to fact" in order to make a
    point "stand out" in stark relief.

    When Jesus stated that He had lost "none whom the Father had given Him, except the son of perdition", we do not think He meant that Judas was once "one of His own". In fact, Jesus stated it were better if Judas had "never been born".

    Any seemingly contradictory statement must be interpreted in the light of overall
    Scripture. The promise of eternal life for every believer, irrespective of whether
    we think one might refuse to forgive, must be understood as entirely dependent
    upon God; not upon whether we can "take ourselves out of the position of
    eternal life". We do not have the authority or power to remove ourselves from
    the state of salvation.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  11. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Mel writes:
    "Any seemingly contradictory statement must be interpreted in the light of overal Scripture. The promise of eternal life for every believer, irrespective of whether we think one might refuse to forgive, must be understood as entirely dependent upon God; not upon whether we can "take ourselves out of the position of eternal life". We do not have the authority or power to remove ourselves from the state of salvation."

    The above sounds like the classic OSAS position.

    We all believe that God is soveriegn and that God is in complete control of our salvation. The issue is how did the soveriegn God choose to provide salvation to mankind in terms of grace and freewill. God could have provided salvation for mankind any way He wanted. The scriptures describe the way He chose and it includes some freewill.

    As indicated in post #27 (5/21/06), a choice must be made on this issue. It is easier for me to assume the scriptures used to support OASA are intended to encourage christians that to say some scriptures don't mean what they say because they conflict with OSAS.
     
  12. Dave

    Dave Member
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    If a person who is a professing Christian refuses to forgive another for a prolonged period of time, then I would question whether they are really a true believer. The question on God's chastising the believer was brought up earlier in this thread and this is a prime example of where God would chastise the believer to bring them to repentence and forgiving the other person.

    The command is to forgive. The reason is that we can't expect to receive forgiveness from God and shun our responsibility to show Christ's nature to the world. God forgives first and formost, but we have a responsibility to become more and more Christlike in our walk. This is the working of the Spirit in us. This is the fruit of the Spirit within us. It is inconsistent to believe that a true believer, knowing how much they have been forgiven (actually it is probably more than we can even understand in this world), could possibly not forgive someone who wronged them far less than they have wronged God. This should be grounds for church discipline, but that is another thread, I suppose.

    Obviously in the short term we can all go through a period of not forgiving someone, but if God is not dealing with you on that, then get on your knees and do some deep soul-searching before God. Make sure your salvation with fear and trembling.

    This does not conflict with the preservation of the saints doctrine, also known as OSAS. Christ will lose none that are given to Him. Unfortunately, many people fool themselves into believing they are Christians, and for them Christ has this to say "Depart from me, I never knew you". I hope and pray that noone on this board will one day hear that from the savior. What a tragedy it will be!!!
     
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