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Featured Free Will in the Early Church 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Dec 8, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Before the time of Augustine, 354-430, there are no fathers in the early Church, as far are I am able to see from my research, who taught that humans did no longer possess a “free will”, and that this “freedom” was completely destroyed when Adam and Eve fell. What I have seen in the writings of the early Church fathers, some of whom I have quoted below, is that from the earliest time, in fact Clement of Rome lived when most of the Apostles were still alive, and they clearly taught that humans did not lose this ability to choose.

    Augustine's own teaching on this is not what the Holy Bible teaches, like his theology on the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, where he held the demonic view, that the “ransom” Jesus paid with His death, was to the devil! If this blasphemous teaching was that of any of the cults, like the JW's, it would be condemned by the strongest language possible. But, because it is by a friend of the “Reformed”, Augustine can “get away” with his blatant HERESY!

    “Ransom to Satan Theory: This theory was developed by Origen (A.D. 185–254), and it advocated that Satan held people captive as a victor in war. This theory, which was also held by Augustine, advocated that because Satan held people captive, a ransom had to be paid, not to God, but to Satan. In response to this view it should be noted that God’s holiness, not Satan’s, was offended, and payment (ransom) had to be made to God to avert His wrath. Furthermore, Satan did not have the power to free man; God alone had the power. This theory is false because it makes Satan the benefactor of Christ’s death. This view has too high a view of Satan; the cross was a judgment of Satan, not a ransom to Satan.” (Paul Enns; The Moody Handbook of Theology, p. 312)

    Clement of Rome 35-99 A.D.

    There is also another error of the demons, which they suggest to the senses of men, that they should think that those things which they suffer, they suffer from such as are called gods, in order that thereby, offering sacrifices and gifts, as if to propitiate them, they may strengthen the worship of false religion, and avoid us who are interested in their salvation, that they may be freed from error; but this they do, as I have said, not knowing that these things are suggested to them by demons, for fear they should be saved. It is therefore in the power of every one, since man has been made possessed of free-will, whether he shall hear us to life, or the demons to destruction (Recognitions (Book IV, ch. 19)

    Ignatius 35-107

    Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men-the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch v)

    Justin Martyr 110-165

    But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins (The Second Apology of St. Justin Martyr, ch. 7)

    Irenaeus of Lyons 120-202

    Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.

    This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do. (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37.i)

    Clement of Alexandria 150–215

    For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression if you will showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock. If you will, then, if you really will, and art not deceiving yourself, acquire what you lack. (Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?, X)
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Clement of Rome. 'They all [i.e. the Patriarchs] were honoured and glorified, not through themselves or their works or their righteous behaviour, but through God's will. And we also, who have been called in Christ Jesus through His will, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety, or our actions done in holiness of heart, but through faith, for it is by faith that God Almighty has justified all men that have been from the beginning of time: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [Letter to the Corinthians XXXII]

    '[Grant to us, Lord], that we may hope in Thy name, the primal origin of all creation, and open the eyes of our hearts to know Thee... the only benefactor of spirits and God of all flesh...observer of men's works, helper of those in peril, saviour of the despairing, creator and overseer of every spirit. Thou increasest the nations of earth, and didst choose out of all men those who love Thee through Jesus Christ.......' [ibid LIX]

    It took me five minutes to find these. I have no intention of traipsing through the other Church fathers.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    What are you trying to to show
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I did not know that we Calvinists hold to no free will, as I hold to it as Luther did in his the Bondage of the Will!
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that all sinners have free wills to either accept or reject the offer of the Gospel
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, saying that the lost sinner free will by itself will always reject Jesus to save them!
     
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you cannot be right. because what you are saying is, that when the sinner has the option to, "choose this day whom you will serve", as we read in Joshua, that every time they would "reject"? In which case, what is the point is asking to "choose" if they cannot? Why would it say in Acts 17:30, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent", if they cannot?. your reasoning is moot!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So isaiah and paul saying none seek after God is moot?
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    none would do so "naturally", as the Bible clearly says, that "faith somes from hearing the Gospel", the sinner then can either accept or reject this Gospel, as they do, "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist (ἀντιπίπτω, strive against) the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you" (Acts 7:51)
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Luke, the writer of the gospel and the acts of the Apostles never spoke of free will. In fact, the only thing you will find in all 66 books of the Bible will be the levitical free-will offering, which only means it was not a prescribed offering.

    However, the OP seems desperate and is looking for non-inspired post-apostolic writings in an attempt to justify his philosophy.
     
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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    :Laugh:Roflmao
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this is one example which shows that there are some who just come on here for an argument, and don't even bother to read what is written. Did you read the title? It says "Free will in the Early Church", not the Holy Bible. The purpose being to show that the position of some Reformed/Calvinists, is based on the unbiblical theology of Augustine in the 4th century. And that the Church up to his time taught that humans have "free will"!
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I read the title. The early church is Luke's account. It is also inspired by God.
    The more I read from you the more I think you are a Roman Catholic. Are you?
     
  14. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    The will of Christians is to be submissive to the will of God and not expressed.

    [Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

    Lucifer was the first created being to express his will. Therefore, when man expresses his will, he is following Lucifer's lead.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are the examples of all who are not the chosen of God in Christ!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus Himself stated that all are enslaved to the sin nature and the flesh unless/until Jesus sets them free...
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which shows that even from early on there was a mixture of truth and error in the early church after Apostolic Age!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    no, think he is a free will baptist
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    what complete rubbish!
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so, according to you, all the early Church theologians, even those very Orthodox, were blinded to this "truth", that only was revealed to Augustine! This is more rubbish from the reformed!
     
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