Free Will Questions

[inappropriate remarks edited]

If nature limits will then God is limited by His nature and His will is not free - in fact our will would be more free in that we can do both good and evil works

God cannot do evil


Simply nature affects will but doesnt not control it

[ February 03, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

God granted a free will to every man. The concept of free will is taught in Genesis. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam partook of the tree, and transgressed the commandment of God. Calvinists claim that Adam possessed a free will, but they do so ignorantly.

Leviticus 1:3, "If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD."

Numbers 15:3, "And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:"

 

Scripture please?

So you are saying you and Calvinists are ignorant because you agree on this point? Then count me among the ignorant, because I believe Adam had free will, too. But I do not believe we have the same degree of freedom, since scripture plainly says we do not. Being told I'm a slave to sin, unable to come to Jesus unless it is given unto me by the Father says I don't have free will (or, as others prefer to put it, I have free choice but my will is bent by my sin nature). Now show me the scriptures that say none of this is true.

Well, that's a step in the right direction. You've demonstrated that God asked us to make offerings of our own free will.

Now, please demonstrate, using scripture, and only scripture, no inference please:

1. That instructions for a freewill offering somehow are intended to communicate the message that we can choose to accept or reject Jesus of our own free will.

2. You won't be able to get past #1, but assuming you did, then I'd ask you to explain why the verses you provided require us to reject the plain meaning of the scriptures that say otherwise (we are slaves to sin, there is no one who seeks after God, no one can come to Me unless the Father enables him, and so on.)

 

Here you point out the right argument and then totally ignore what it says. God is free. He is limited by nothing outside himself. If he were, he would not be God. The conclusion we should arrive here is not to change our definition of God but our definition of free will. God has a free will, yet he cannot do evil becuase of his nature. Man has a free will, yet cannot do righteousness becasue of his nature.

It is very simple for those who won't make an argument and then contradict their own argument and the text of Scripture.

 

I think it only fitting to add that God cannot do evil, not because He is "not permitted" but because he is the STANDARD of Righteousness. That means that whatever God does is right. This is not true with man. God is the standaard we are not.

 

Jesus rejects the idea of Free Will in John 8:31-36

as does the Apostle Peter when he states in 2 Peter 2:10

The Apostle Paul also rejects free will in Romans 6

Free Moral Agency Which is sometimes confused with Free Will teaches that man is not Free but is responsible for his own actions and that every individual is accountable to God for the choices he or she makes regarding accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior. Free Moral agency emphasizes that one can only believe by the Work of the Holy Spirit who frees us from our bondage to Self Will. Free Will implies however man has a part in his salvation and diminishes the work of the Holy Spirit in converting a sinner and has a weak view of humanity’s sin nature.


It is also logical that if one can believes on Christ by their supposed Free will, they can also stop believing by their Free will. The Church of God, General Conference states
We believe that since believers were free to make the decision to accept Christ as Savior and Lord, they are not less free at any time to turn away from God and be lost. Very few Baptists who hold to free will believe one can also in their free will leave Christ but it is logical for anyone who holds to a free will doctrine.

 

Ok those who doeth no good

lets refer to your neighbours - lets pretend that somewhere really close to you non-christians live.

You say the Bible says that they cannot do good

So you're telling me that they do drugs, prostitution, and have made many many attempts on your life.

Foolish one - fallen man can do good deeds, as can we - but they count for nothing - in fact less then nothing - they count for pus-soaked, smelly stink-infested rags.

Fallen man cannot be holy or righteous or perfect - but in no way does it mean your neighbour is a drunken lecher who pimps out his family


Larry, i think you purposefully shut your mind

Rats in a maze - they have free will - oh true the rats cant teleport through walls, but within the confines of their abilities there are no limits save what a superior power imposes on them

God sets limits - a boundary to what He will tolerate - and we can run back and forth sinning, or not sinning within that boundary

God respects our free will - but He also knows we are sinful and so acts to put limits on what options we have available to freely choose from

Lets see if you can understand this

God is sovereign - God created us with free will - God saw the possibilty of us screwing up - God instituted limits on our individual abilities. But within those abilities God will not interfere unless He's asked or they are called unto a special purpose.

I dont deny election - I dont deny God's sovereignty, I just say there's a dash of free will put in there by God

 

God is sovereign - God created us with free will - God saw the possibilty of us screwing up - God instituted limits on our individual abilities. But within those abilities God will not interfere unless He's asked or they are called unto a special purpose.

I dont deny election - I dont deny God's sovereignty, I just say there's a dash of free will put in there by God

Sularis, look at your post, it is full of mistakes, let me point out two of the biggest.

1) You said, "God instituted limits" AND "God created us with free will" Those are contradictions. You can't say that God made us free and put limitations on us. That is like a judge saying that he sentences someone to a free life in prison.

2) And most important, this isn't supported by scripture. Where does it say that there is "a dash of free will put in there by God"?

Not in the bible.

 

Ok sturgman Ill hafta go simpler so you can understand

We are in a prison right now - our own sinful bodies - God has every right to throw us into Hell and throw away the key

but instead He sets limits on what we can do, calls us, and acts to bring us to Himself

setting limits doesnt impair our will it impairs our outlets for that will

 

I have purposely set my mind to follow the text of Scripture where it leads.

Bad analogy because you assume the rats want to be freed. Natural man does not desire to be freed from his nature.

I agree with this but I do not see how you can. If God "sets limits" then man cannot do anything at all, which violates your whole premise.

The test is not my understanding but rather conformity to God's word. So let's test it.

God did not see a "possibility." He saw an actuality. To say God instituted limits is contrary to your stated position that God will not interefere. Man will not ask God to really intervene. They will seek the idea of God only selfishly. The Bible that they are not seeking God and cannot submit themselves to him (Rom 3, 8; John 6; Eph 2).

But you are not substantiating that from Scripture and therefore you argument falls short. You Just say there is a dash of free will; I have no problem with that if you define free will properly. But as it is, you have not. YOu have denied election in that you deny that election is the pretemporal choice of God before the foundation of the world of individuals for salvation (Eph 1; 2 Thess 2; etc). If you do not believe that, then a very good case can be made that you have denied the biblical doctrine of election.

 

It is most interesting that Calvinists deny the Biblical reality of a person's ability to decide for or against Christ, which we might call 'free will.' But notice after God sovereignly elects the sinner, then this transformed sinner should use his or her being to please God in holiness all the days of his or her life. Then this human ability to make decisions is fine. After salvation the will is allowed to function, but notice not aways in perfection of the Christian life. Sometimes that will fails to please the Lord God. This proves that a person, as a Christian, through the use of his free will, still has the ability to please or displease the Lord.

The concept of 'free will' is used only to putty the walls of Calvinism, as needed, {prn}.

 

Hey, Ray! Check your PMs! 8oD

 

Yes, Ray, but it is only because we are born again that we are able, by putting on the new man, to please God.

 

Being obedient to one's nature places no limitations on one's free will! God is always obedient to his nature.

Neither does being disobedient to one's nature!

A sinner can be disobedient to the sin nature, and that is the only means by which man can believe in Jesus. Belief in Jesus comes from being disobedient to the sin nature. Disobedience is natural for man, because the original sin is that of man's disobedience of God. And it is disobedience to man's nature whereby man can believe in Jesus.

 

Yelsew,

I especially liked your last paragraph dated February 6 4:50 p.m.

The Holy Spirit works through what you have said in your post. Obviously, He desires more that the sinner bows before Him than the sinner's inclination to humble himself. When this yielding to Christ takes place, a Divine transformation takes place. [John 1:12]

 

Ray,
The fact is those who think man has nothing to say about his eternal destiny have no knowledge of man. Nor do they understand God's plan for the redemption of Man.

Man will bow before Jesus either in worship or in defeat. The difference rests in man's decision here in this temporal life. The decision is to believe in Jesus or not believe in Jesus. Believing brings life eternal, not believing brings the second death.

 

Yelsew,

A perfect post. {February 6 9:26 p.m.} You spoke in truth as to His plan for humanity. I would fear if I were a person who trusted in some kind of sovereign, choice theory, especially if I did not have an experience with the Lord that I could say that I am only trusting in Him for my final salvation, in hope of everlasting life.

'My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the weakest frame, but wholly lean of Jesus Name.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.
On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.'