Free Will vs. Predestination

wells,

For starters, Hebrews 6 (among others) destroys the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. You can't fall away, for instance, from something you've never had.

 

Michael,

I assume you are referring to: For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. (Heb 6:4-6 NASB)

These referenced had received instruction in biblical truth which was accompanied by intellectual perception. Understanding the gospel is not the equivalent of regeneration (cf. 10:26,32). In John 1:9 it is clear that enlightening is not the equivalent of salvation. "Partakers of the Holy Spirit" in this context does not imply that they were believers. One can participate in the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit and not experience salvation. 50% or higher of the people who regularly attend our various churches today bear witness to that! In verse 5 these Hebrews had not yet been regenerated in spite of all they had (tasted) heard and seen (Matt. 13:3–9; John 6:60–66). They were repeating the sins of those who died in the wilderness after seeing the miracles performed through Moses and Aaron and hearing the voice of God at Sinai.

In verse 6 we see that those who sinned against Christ in such a way had no hope of restoration or forgiveness (2:2,3; 10:26,27; 12:25). The reason is that they had rejected Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. With full revelation they rejected the truth, concluding the opposite of the truth about Christ, and thus had no hope of being saved. They can never have more knowledge than they had when they rejected it. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with his enemies. There is no possibility of these verses referring to losing salvation. Many Scripture passages make unmistakably clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27–29; Rom. 8:35,38,39; Phil. 1:6; 1 Pet. 1:4,5). Read these! Those who want to make this verse mean that believers can lose salvation will have to admit that it would then also say that one could never get it back again.

I agree with your last statement which is confusing in light of your stand against assured eternal salvation.

 

wells,

More to come...tomorrow, I hope. For now, I'll just say I disagree with your interpretation.

 

Michael,

Great, I look forward to your detailed reasoning as to why you disagree. Should be good for both of us. I am traveling tomorrow so probably won't respond until Thurday, so take your time. Using the principal of letting scripture interpret scripture, here are some verses to consider that point to "once saved, always saved!"

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29 NIV)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:35,38-39 NIV)

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6 NIV)

In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3b-5 NIV)

[ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Scripture does NOT teach that Christ died for ALL men, Christ died for a chosen people,,EPH 1:4, we have been misled by most baptist churches and preachers. So much scripture is taken out of context..we all need to study more. God chose Jacob BEFORE he done any good or bad and he left Esau in his sinful condition. God does not look in the future and see who will accept Him and then make His choice, that would be ratification and not ELECTION.

 

Eph 1:4,

Where did your argument about "all men" come from? I agree with you totally, but the discussion here is do the saved get saved through their own choosing or by predestination/election. Mr. Wrenn mentioned the Unitarian Servetus, but don't think he was advocating his religious beliefs.

 

The point I was trying to make was if you do not believe in election you believe that Christ died for all. If it wasn't for election we would all go to hell. Sorry if I was confusing.

 

Michael,

The Anabaptists were not the sole reason we have separation of church and state today. It didn't even exist in America at the start. Furthermore, I trace my Baptist Heritage to English Baptist movements in the later Reformation period. If I were a Mennonite, Amish, or Brethren, then I would trace my heritage to the Anabaptists. Anabaptists were pacifists, arminian, did not believe in taking oaths, and did not believe in serving in government, nor participating in the military. I differ on all counts.

Furthermore, those in Hebrews 6 who tasted the heavenly gift, and yet fell away were not genuine believers. Judas Iscariot fits this description very well, and yet Christ indicated that it had been better if he were not born (indicating his lost condition). Look at all the heavenly gifts and works of the Spirit that he had a part in--and yet he was never re-generate--never elect.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chick Daniels:
Furthermore if you are going to eliminate all of the points of Calvinist theology from the Scriptures, I hope that for your sake you have large scissors, because when you are done, there won't be many pages left.

Chick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely right Chick. Start your scissors at Gen 1:1 (1 In the beginning God created...) and stop cutting when you get to Rev 22:19 ( ...God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.)

 

It never ceases to amaze me how people start their diatribes against "Calvinism" by pointing out the obvious - that Calvin was by no means a perfect man.

Oh well, let the debate continue. Mind if I hide out here and avoid the rock slinging over in the Bible translation threads?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
It never ceases to amaze me how people start their diatribes against "Calvinism" by pointing out the obvious - that Calvin was by no means a perfect man.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the problems is the nickname "Calvinism". Calvinism is nothing more than Augustinian, Pauline, Jesus-ine theology. It is, Biblical theology.

 

Calvinism is no more "Biblical theology" than Catholicism is.

 

FlyFree said "God knows who is going to heaven"

Actually, God doesn't simply depend on His omniscience to elect, i.e., God knows all, and thereby can forecast correctly who will choose Him. The Bible teaches that God actually elects men by His almighty will.

Michael,

Actually Arminianism with its man-centered approach to Theology is closer to Catholicism, with its man/works based salvation.

Chick

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Calvinism is no more "Biblical theology" than Catholicism is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Really? On what do you base that ridiculous assertion? Have you ever read the Westminster Confession of Faith? Studied the Larger Catechism, or the Shorter? What of the London Baptist Confessions, 1644-1689? Have you ever read the plethora of biblical references contained therein?

Or what of Benjamin Keach's catechism? Or Spurgeon's? Or the systematic theologies of Berkhof, and SBC Fathers J.P. Boyce, J.L. Dagg and B.H. Carroll?

If you don't like Calvinism and disagree with it, be my guest, but to make a statement like "Calvinism is no more 'Biblical theology' than Catholicism" ignores the volume of theological writings of historic Reformed and Baptist writers, and is quite frankly, a statement of selective ignorance.

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris, or should I say "Oh, High Exalted One",

Yes, I have read all those documents you listed, and they are the very reason why I can make such a statement as the one I made.

Calvinism and Romanism are both theologies from the pit of hell; they shackle man and besmudge God's character.

Before you go calling someone else ignorant, you really should seek to ascertain the intellectual and educational level of that person. If you had that knowledge, it might keep you from betraying your own apparently invincible ignorance.

 

Then Michael, if you are indeed educated and intellectual, then your words should reflect that. I agree with Chris. Your comment has no sound basis and is purely inflamatory. Why are your feathers so ruffled over Chris' response. That's what you were shooting for with your crude comment. Your collective comments on this board have been, how shall I say it nicely, unimpressive, bigoted, and insensitive! We have asked you to reason with us through exegesis of scriptures, but you have done nothing but make accusatory comments with no systematic defense. Weigh your statement on the scales of the following:

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape
from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-26 NIV)

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells - formerly wellsjs ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Calvinism and Romanism are both theologies from the pit of hell; they shackle man and besmudge God's character.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are some biblical verses, “Straight from the Pit of Hell”, (Father forgive me) without comment.

Total Depravity

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Unconditional Election

Rom 9: 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Eph 1: 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Limited Atonement

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Irresistible Grace

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
I Peter 5:10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

Perseverance of the Saints

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

 

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Calvinism and Romanism are both theologies from the pit of hell; they shackle man and besmudge God's character.

Michael, as Chris' verses demonstrate, Calvinist (Biblical) Theology actually frees men from the shackles of their dead condition, and it uplifts and promotes God's character. Arminianism on the other hand, keeps many a man in the shackles of sin, and limits God's sovereignty, thereby "besmudging" His character.

Chick

 

John,

I wonder why I should take offense at being called ignorant!

I am insulted on this board by the far right and on BaptistNet by the far left; I guess my position is about correct, considering that.