Free Will vs. Predestination

Chris,

If you are a true Baptist, you should have added, "in my opinion."

 

I just find the "just believe in Jesus and you are saved" thing a little unbiblical. I know there are many extremes of this. Just as there are extremes of predestination. Why bother trying to do anything the way the Bible teaches if we are saved by grace through faith. If your actions mean nothing, sin all the time.(Very unbiblical) If we are all predestined by God, then why try to convert people? After all, isn't this God's realm?

Why are there any teachings in the Bible about how we should act and treat others if those who are saved by God will do these things naturally?

I don't believe that God and Christianity are that one dimensional. I believe that part of our salvation does come from the way we live. After all, by your words you will be acquitted and by your words you will be condemned. I believe that our salvation is dependent on where our heart is. Is our heart with God or with this world?

I am not saying that our salvation comes through our actions, it only comes through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. I am just saying that our sacrificial life will only be acceptable to God if our heart is correct. As Jesus says in Mattew 15 about Isaiah being correct when he wrote: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I just find the "just believe in Jesus and you are saved" thing a little unbiblical. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As do I. That comes down to the easy believism/Lordship salvation debate. I think Scripture is clear that one must accept Christ as Savior and Lord in order to be saved. Jesus said “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), and “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). But that debate is not centered in Calvinism/Arminianism, as people in both camps fall into both the easy believism and Lordship camps as well.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I know there are many extremes of this. Just as there are extremes of predestination. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are many extremes of many doctrines. But just because extremism exists does not make the core doctrine (predestination, election) untrue. It just means we need to get zeroed in on the biblical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why bother trying to do anything the way the Bible teaches if we are saved by grace through faith. If your actions mean nothing, sin all the time.(Very unbiblical) If we are all predestined by God, then why try to convert people? After all, isn't this God's realm? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because we are commanded to, and God has ordained that He will be glorified through the salvation and willful obedience of the elect creatures who keep His word, and also by the damnation of the evil who do not keep His word.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why are there any teachings in the Bible about how we should act and treat others if those who are saved by God will do these things naturally? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a misunderstanding. No man does things “naturally”, other than sin by the sin nature. But every man is a free moral agent, and not an automaton. Yet every choice man makes is guided and guarded by the providence of God. How does this “work”? I don’t know, but its scriptural. The best analogy is the inspiration of Scripture. The authors of the books of the Bible wrote down what were their experiences and observances, using their own words, emotions and styles. YET every word of Scripture is the inspired Word of God Almighty. He did not dictate the words written down (though in some cases, of course, He did) but directed men to write every word He wanted written down.

This is the same in the willful actions of men. Every man decides what he will do by his willful choice, but even his "free" choices are directed and established by God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't believe that God and Christianity are that one dimensional. I believe that part of our salvation does come from the way we live. After all, by your words you will be acquitted and by your words you will be condemned. I believe that our salvation is dependent on where our heart is. Is our heart with God or with this world? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or rather, the way we live witnesses to our salvation. “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” Philippians 2:12. We are to live as the saved ones we are. We are not saved by works, but saved unto good works.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:8-10) Even the good works we do are predetermined by God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I am not saying that our salvation comes through our actions, it only comes through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. I am just saying that our sacrificial life will only be acceptable to God if our heart is correct. As Jesus says in Matthew 15 about Isaiah being correct when he wrote: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn’t agree with you more.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

It seems to me that we basically arrive at the same conclusions.

I think that somehow we have a combination of free will and predestination. Does this belief damn me to hell? Should this belief exclude me from becoming a member of a local congregation? I don't believe so, yet it does. "If you don't believe our beliefs, then you are not welcome as a member. You can attend, just not become a member", is what I was told.

I believe the real question in this debate is what is the fruit of such debates? I believe they can be either good or bad. If they are used to sharpen each other, this is good. If they are used to divide, it is of the flesh.

 

Tuor,

Not necessarily. It was the Spirit which led the Baptists and Anabaptists to separate from the state churches of Europe, even thought it cost them their lives.

 

I believe there is only one reason to seperate, and that is because a herecy is being taught. If for some reason the Church as it stands is in such a state that following what it says will lead to death. This is a valid reason for a seperation movement. If the Church kicks a person out is one thing, but to create division in the church yourself is another.

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Pastor Larry,

I posted my message on 1 Peter 2:8 at your request; I hope you'll respond.

 

Well, Larry, you were clamoring for me to post my message on 1 Peter 2:8--so, where are you?

 

Michael

You need to relax. There are actually things going on right now. In the first place, I am not going to continue to indefinitely discuss this with someone who is not interested in the truth. We can disagree and live fine. We do not need to continue endless discussions where you are ignoring the teaching of Scripture and the implications or your position. I do not say that to be hateful in any way; I simply think you have some serious issues that you must deal with and I have seen no willingness on your part to address those issues. If you want to believe what you believe, that is fine. Just understand there are some serious problems with it and its implications.

I wanted to take a little time to answer your post more than in a couple of lines that is possible with some of the other stuff on this board. However, I will just hit the highlights here.

They were disobedient to the word – This is connected in v. 7 with disbelief in the cornerstone. It is a failure to accept salvation, its provisions and blessings. It is causal most likely – “Because they were disobedient” (NASB, NIV). These people have fallen into eternal condemnation because they reject divine revelation.

Unto which – An accusative of purpose/aim.
1. It could modify the participle (disobey), which is the nearest verbal. Hence they were appointed to disobedience.
2. It could modify stumbling which is the main verb. Hence they were appointed to stumble.
3. It could modify the entire act. Hence they were appointed to stumbling through their disobedience.

There is little actual difference here though I am slightly inclined to position 3.

Appointed – used of God’s predestinating something or someone before hand, either shortly (1 Cor 12:18,28) or more frequently long beforehand (Acts 1:7; Rom 4:17; 1 Thess 5:9; Heb 1:2). It is used here to contrast the establishment of Christ in v. 6 with the establishment of the rebellious to condemnation. This appointment was likely prior to creation (cf. Rom 9:14-24; 2 Peter 2:3). This is a statement of God’s eternal decree by which all things come to pass.

Possible interpretations of this verse.

1. Refers to national Israel (Selwyn). While this is consistent with OT usage, Peter is addressing Gentiles and so it has no relevance here.

2. Cause/Effect – All who reject are appointed by God to judgment. This is your position, also held by Hiebert. The problem is that in the passage, it is not the judgment which is appointed, it is the individuals which are appointed.

3. Traditional Reformed – Double election – God appoints and secures salvation for the elect; he appoints and secures perdition for the non-elect. This appears to contradict other passages that says God is not actively pursuing the destruction of the wicked but rather just letting them go.

4. Double predestination with reprobation and God’s decree (see Grudem). God’s decree has appointed everything. However, unlike view 2, in this decree, God simply passes over the non-elect rather than actively seeking their destruction.

Three or four are viable alternatives. The first and second is simply outside the text. In the second, God did not appoint a cause/effect in the passage. He appointed individuals.

 

Larry,

You said you're not going to discuss this indefinitely with someone who is not interested in the truth; well, I feel the same way. Further, your charge that I'm ignoring the scripture is simply an arrogant statement; there is much in the scriptures to support free will, as I and others have shown. What I AM *choosing* to ignore is the false theology of Calvinism and those who interpret the scripture according to false Calvinist presuppositions.

The Holy Spirit settled this for me a long time ago, and you ain't the Holy Spirit, bro.

Hasta la vista!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You said you're not going to discuss this indefinitely with someone who is not interested in the truth; well, I feel the same way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I and others have repeatedly cited Scripture that shows the biblical doctrine of soteriology. You refuse to show any exegesis that shows this understanding to be wrong. I just looked back briefly through a few pages of this thread and the closest it seems you have come to citing Scripture in a long time was your attempt at 1 Peter 2:8, which you wrongly interpreted as I showed above. Yet rather than respond to the exegesis of Scripture, you simply accuse others of not knowing the truth. The truth is found in Scripture and until you deal with that properly this discussion is fruitless.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Further, your charge that I'm ignoring the scripture is simply an arrogant statement; there is much in the scriptures to support free will, as I and others have shown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just looked back through this thread and you have cited two passages: Heb 6 which John dealt with and 1 Peter 2:8 which I just answered. Where is all this wealth of Scripture you claim to have. Certianly you can do better than these two passages. I am not even an arminian and I can support it better than you have.

You have yet to show one verse that supports your position when it is properly used. With all the wealth of Scripture you claim to have on your side, the best argument you have yet to muster is that Calvin was a murderer. You have not even argued that very well, instead avoiding the subject. This is very similar to your argument in the CBF/SBC thread that "Al Mohler is a punk and a Presbyterian-in-disguise." This is totally out of line and uncalled for. Surely we have actual substance to talk about rather than degenerating into personal attacks.

You say that the Holy Spirit showed you what 1 Peter 2:8 says. The Holy Spirit showed me something else. Who is right? You must look at what the text says. The Holy Spirit never leads one contrary to the text of Scripture. 1 Peter 2:8 talks about individuals.

YOu have not even yet begun to deal with the verses that show God's absolute and sovereign control over the universe. You instead choose to ignore it.

I am willing to discuss verses and theology. I am not going to endlessly discuss anything void of Scripture.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Larry, I think that Michael's response to your interaction with the Scriptural text speaks for itself. He is simply ignoring Biblical Soteriology, and embracing the humanist construct of Arminianism which seems to have at root a hermeneutic that says, "God must have done it this way." Bringing the Holy Spirit in as witness is characteristic of a somewhat gnostic claim of special information that confirms truth. You and I Larry, and others on this board, derive our truth sola scriptora (Scripture Only) -- but that was a battle cry of the dreaded reformers. So it is natural that Michael would apparently lay claim to special revelation from the Spirit over what is said in Scripture.

Chick

 

What I think Michael is doing reflects where he is in his struggle to comprehend the infinite using finite means.

He responds almost violently when approached with the biblical concepts of election and predestination because, IMO, their presence in Scripture amplify the conflict that he sees between human and Sovereign will.

From my conversations with Michael on this board and others, I have found him to be a very passionate believer who strongly desires to enter the pastoral ministry but is unable to do so presently due to circumstances beyond his control.

Is he mistaken concerning the "doctrines of grace"? IMO, yes. Is he mistaken concerning preventient (sp?) Grace? IMO, yes. Is he mistaken concerning the possiblity of a revolving door between heaven and hell (i.e. repentance of those in hell being a gateway to entering heaven from hell)? IMO, yes.

But he is my Christian brother even if he is not correct on all things like I am.

 

God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30)—but ultimately it is He himself who must grant repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). And although God demands the response of faith, He must graciously prompt and empower that response in the hearts of the elect (Acts 18:27). The human heart is so depraved that left to ourselves, none of us would ever believe. If we could generate faith on our own, we would certainly have something to boast about. But Scripture says “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8–10).
These truths are not hidden in isolated passages of Scripture, but as Spurgeon suggested, they are “the essence of the Bible,” affirmed throughout the sacred text.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Spurgeon quoted Jonah 2:9, “Salvation is of the Lord,” and then commented,
That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, “He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord.” I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. “He only is my rock and my salvation.” Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, “God is my rock and my salvation.” What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Very good John.

 

Larry and Chick,

In my posting on several boards of several denominations, I have found it nearly impossible to have discussions with two groups of Christians (with a few individual exceptions): five-point Calvinists and Roman Catholics. Why? Because they are totally convinced they they are absolutely correct and no one else is, and that if you disagree with them you are either ignorant, ******, dishonest, or scripturally illiterate.

I love debate and discussion; I have found that it clarifies my beliefs--even debate with those who diametrically oppose my views. And it helps me better understand others' beliefs. I cannot accept, however, the attitude of superiority that I've encountered here; so, it is better, I think, that I peaceably withdraw.

Maybe before it's all over, you will come to believe, as I do, that "we all see through a glass, darkly", and that while we have The Truth--Jesus Christ--we are all still seekers after truth.

 

Jonathan,

Right now your post and your friendship mean more to me than you'll probably ever know. When I read that post, it brought tears to my eyes...and a smile to my face when I read the last line.

God bless you, my brother and my friend! I'll always remember what you said to me in that e-mail, too; it made an indelible impression in my mind and spirit.

Thanks for your thoughts, prayers, kindness and encouragement.

YBIC,

Michael

P.S. I want everyone here to know that I really don't want to hurt anyone, regardless of the severity of some of my words. I ask God's forgiveness and mercy as I continue to struggle to be faithful to Him.