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Freedom (Free Will),Free Will Stopped at the Garden

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ryarn, Sep 23, 2011.

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  1. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I agree with you, but the point I was making was what you provided in Lev. Cannot apply to us today. That was when God was dealing directly with His people. Today the whole world can come, for who so ever will. In those days the Gentile could come, but they were proselytes. They were not allowed to get near the Holy Place, and certainly not the Holy of Holies.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Non-Jews could participate in the Passover, which is a figure of Christ (Num 9:14)
     
  3. ryarn

    ryarn Member
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    I'm sorry your a frustrated English teacher:laugh:
     
  4. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    yes, thanks, we are free to choose anything that is available that we. If we have a choice between steak and chicken, I guess I can't choose lobster. :)
     
  5. ryarn

    ryarn Member
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    And you probably will have less GAS also.:laugh:
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...nor would lobster be considered a choice like accepting Christ is not a real choice for the non elect.
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No, that option is available. That's the straw man that is always given. Choosing Christ or rejecting Christ. Because I have no desire for one doesn't mean it's not an available choice. If the non-elect were to accept Christ, and then be rejected because there were not elect, then it would not be an option. But that's not the case at all.

    Remember, election is because God knows that men will reject him.
     
  8. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Remember that, in calvinism, God knows what men will reject him because he doesn't allow them to accept him.
     
  9. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Again, straw man. Calvinism does NOT teach that God doesn't allow someone to accept him.

    Not sure why you must continue to say these type things. If you think we are really wrong, you should be able to use what we really believe instead of these straw men.
     
  10. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    I only relate what is conveyed to me by calvinists on this board. If my statements about calvinism are in error, then blame yourself and fellow calvinists for not being able to properly explain your convoluted and confusing theology.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What about those that God doesn't chose? Does He allow them to accept Him?
     
  13. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    There is no other choice than choosing Christ or rejecting Christ. Of course. Those are the two options.

    How can I have a straw man about my own argument? I'm misrepresenting what I believe? That doesn't even make sense. Desire has everything to do with it.

    yes there is. There are two options. My lack of desire for one doesn't make it not an option.

    It has everything to do with desire. The non-elect will never want/desire to come to Christ. That doesn't mean that the option isn't there, nor does it mean that there isn't a choice. It's just that there is only a desire to go to one of the available options.

    It means that God knows that all men will reject him, so he has elected to save some.

    Election is not that men are coming to Christ and he doesn't accept some and accepts others(as many arguments imply), instead it's that all men are going away from Christ(rejection) and God elects to save some. The rest, he leaves to do exactly what they desire.
     
  14. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    If they accepted him, sure. God has said that everyone that believes will be saved. So there will be on one that he doesn't allow to accept Him.

    Election is not about keeping people out of heaven but keeping people out of hell. I understand that you may not agree with me(which is fine as long as you are getting your doctrine for the Bible!) but that's what I believe the Bible teaches. I don't subscribe to God having a neutral list of people and choosing some to heaven and some to hell. Instead God has a list of people that will reject him and everyone is on that list, so He chooses to save some.

    One of the difficulties in discussing this subject is that some Calvinist subscribe to double predestination and others, such as my self, do not. Many arguments against election are against double predestination. I have no argument for that because I don't believe the Bible teaches double predestination(really should be called double election.)
     
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Actually, God has a book of life where the names of all the redeemed are written. The unsaved do not appear in this book, but I know of no book or list that God has of people who reject Him (book of unredeemed?). That is not scriptural.
     
  16. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Hogwash!

    If my lost neighbor gets drunk, drives and has an automobile accident where someone is killed, you are saying that he did not have any choice whether or not to commit this act? He was "forced" to act the way he did?
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Let's unpack this jbh, okay?

    If the elect must be ENABLED then doesn't it reason the non-elect aren't ABLE?

    And why aren't they ABLE? Is it because of something THEY themselves did? Or is it a result of God's choice to punish mankind for the sin of Adam in the Fall?

    In Calvinism, wasn't it God's choice to DISABLE man to respond to God's appeal? If not, please explain?
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why? Because God has removed their ability to want Christ, right? So, how does that avoid the argument?

    Sure it does. If I give you a pill which makes you absolutely unwilling to hear my appeal to become friends, then you don't have the option to choose to be my friend. By giving you a pill to make you unable to want to be my friend I have made that option obsolete. What is worse is if I made a honest appeal for you to be my friend in front of everyone acting as if I really desired to be your friend and then condemned you as being a mean and unfriendly jerk for not being my friend after giving you that pill.

    That is what Calvinism does to God's character.
     
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Actually, the scriptures speak of men whose names are BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life. God intended they have life, their names were there, but because they reject Christ their names are blotted out or erased.

    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Once again, Calvinists teach the exact opposite of scripture. Doesn't that tell you something?
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No Win that is not what the passage is suggesting at all. The passage is a promise that once a name is entered it cannot be blotted out, not that there was ever blotting out done. It is a promise that once in the book we have eternal security. God did not put men's names in the book in hopes they would be saved and then blot them out because they did not get saved. That is not in the passage at all. It is a book of the saved. Once in the book it will never be removed. That is the promise.
     
    #60 freeatlast, Sep 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
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