Frustration over debate about Calvinism

I just want to say one more thing about faith. And this is based my opinion, my interpretation of scripture and my experience in life.

We do not have blind faith. Our faith is well grounded in something real. We have evidence all around us of God, which Paul describes in his letter to the Romans. We are all capable (because God has created us in such a way/in His image) to look at the evidence of creation, history, scripture (all with the drawing of the Holy Spirit) and make a decision based on these things and trust Christ to save us.

If our faith was blind, I might agree that God must somehow put it in you, but it is not. God has revealed Himself to all people in many ways. It is our responsibility to either accept Him or reject Him.

 

OK, Spurgeon was a great man, but he was just a man.

Let's take that first statement, "A sinner's will is free to sin". What does that mean? If a sinner's will is free to sin, then it MUST be free to do good as well. Correct? Otherwise it is not free. If you can only sin, then your will is not free, but enslaved. You would be a robot for all practical purposes.

The whole idea that faith is imposed makes no sense. Faith is trusting, it is taking a risk, taking a chance. We hear God's word, but we do not see God. We trust in the promises of scripture but we do not literally hear them come from God lips. No, we must trust the scriptures, we must take the chance, the risk that they are true. If in the end the scriptures are not true, then we have believed in vain.

Faith is always built on a promise. God promises to save us. God promises to give the Holy Spirit to those that believe...

A promise is a contract. It must be between at least two individuals. We often promise ourselves we will do something, but that is simply a figure of speech. A geniune promise must involve two parties.

OK, see if you can follow this. You cannot obtain the promise to receive the Holy Spirit if you already have the Holy Spirit.

Did you get that? Read it again if you didn't. Because it is true. If I promised to send you $100 in the mail, that is a promise. But once you receive the money, it is no more a promise. Now it is a fact, a reality.

So, how could a person receive the promise of the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit already being in them? Think about it.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

OK, this is a perfect example of what I just said. Jesus promised the apostles he would send the Holy Ghost not many days hence. So, the day they received this promise, at this time they did not have the Holy Ghost. And it must be so to be a promise.

Now see if you can follow this. The apostles had faith. In fact they all waited together to receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

What I am trying to show here is that the apostles had faith, but yet they did not have the Holy Ghost.

Now Spurgeon was correct in saying interposing. If you look up the word interposing it means to "come inbetween". And Spurgeon was correct. The Holy Spirit was inbetween the Lord and the apostles. The Holy Spirit speaks to believer and unbeliever alike. But the faith comes from the hearer. Faith is not imposed on the hearer.

Unless of course you want to say this grace was not some supernatural gift from God. But if they had faith by this supernatural gift imposed upon them, then there is no promise. They already have the Holy Ghost. Unless you believe this grace is some entity apart from the Holy Ghost.

Think about it.

 

I agree with you 100% Amy.

This whole doctrine is terrible. One poster said God is responsible for who believes. This means God is 100% responsible for a man going to Hell, and that a man has no responsibility. It can't get any worse than that, to actually blame God for sin (unbelief) and completely excuse man. The only motive I see in a person believeing this doctrine is to excuse themselves from personal responsibility.

 

In Chapter 1 of Romans the apostle Paul is talking about the responsibility of man because of the revelation of God in His creation. However, that revelation though sufficient to make man accountable is not the same as the Gospel.

Amy

I have never said that faith is blind. The faith that God gives is after He has restored sight to your eyes that have been blinded by sin. For the first time in your life you are able to truly see. It is just like the old song by John Newton: "I once was blind but now I see".

Note also what the prophet Isaiah tells us about the coming Messiah in the following passage:

Isaiah 42:1-7
1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

 

Another verse that shows this doctrine error is Titus 2:11

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Now, if their doctrine is true, than all men will be saved. But we know that is not true.

The important word in this verse is "appeared". The definition of appeared here is:

1) to show to or upon
a) to bring to light
2) to appear, become visible
a) of stars
3) to become clearly known, to show one's self

This verse is showing that God has made known, or brought to light the way of salvation to all men. They claim God gives grace to some men, and others not. But the scriptures say otherwise.

And if this grace was irresistable as they claim, and this grace brings forth saving faith, then all men would be saved. So clearly their teaching is error.

 

Baloney, the whole chapter is about salvation through Christ.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

What you fail to understand is that God revealed the scriptures and the gospel progressively. And God only holds a person responsible for what was revealed to them at the time.

For instance, when Job wrote, there were no scriptures (almost all scholars believe it to be the oldest book in the Bible). They were written even before Moses. But Job knew of the promised redeemer. And Job knew of the resurrection also.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

But Adam and Eve knew the gospel as well. The first promise of Jesus Christ was made to them.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This was the first promise of the saviour to come. Notice it says "her seed" showing that Christ would be born of a woman, but that he would not be born of a natural man. And Adam and Eve understood this, when Eve found herself pregnant with Cain, she mistakenly thought the child was from God.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was naive and did not realize Cain came from Adam. Nevertheless, she believed God's promise to send a saviour.

Did she know this saviour by name? No. Did she know how Jesus would live under the law, be crucified, and rise from the dead? Probably not. But she believed what was revealed to her, and her faith was counted for righteousness.

 

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those who are described here are the unsaved. If they were blind and unable to see the truth, then why does God send them strong delusion? What is the purpose of blinding the blind?

God does blind people, but only after they have rejected the truth. ("for this cause"..2 Thes. 2:10) But if they were always blind, there would be no reason to blind them. In other words, like Paul says, they knew God but refused to glorify Him as God, so God turned them over to their own lusts. Their hearts were darkened. God gave them what they wanted.

 

Winman

I understand enough to know that Scripture teaches that salvation is entirely by the Grace of Sovereign God and that only those He chose before the foundation will be saved. All the rest are left in their fallen state.

Sadly some people believe that God is not quite up to the task, that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was just a little shy of what is required and they have to give God a helping hand, making themselves little gods, sort of like the Mormons.

 

I agree with you on this too Amy. :thumbsup:

I have showed before, there is no better study on whom God hardens than Pharoah of Egypt. 15 times it says Pharoah's heart was hardened, and many times it says God hardened his heart.

Exo 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

So, this would seem to argue for those that hold this doctrine. But if you read all the scriptures it is clear that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

God knew from the beginning that Pharoah was exceedingly proud and would not listen to anyone. This is why he was "fitted for destruction" in Romans.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Think about all the incredible plagues that Pharoah saw and experienced, and still he refused to let the Hebrews go. This is almost incomprehensible, but that is how stubborn and proud Pharoah was. But God knew this beforehand.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

God did not make Pharoah so he could not believe, Pharoah was already like that. So God chose Pharoah to demonstrate his wrath.

People can be willingly blind. You can show them scriptures that contradicts their false doctrine, they just get stubborn and defend it all the more.

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

You can argue all day that a man's will has no part in salvation, the scriptures clearly show that a man has free will and can believe the scriptures or willingly refuse to believe.

 

It is not that I do not believe God is not able to do this, I do not believe a Holy and loving God would give some men everlasting life, and condemn others to Hell on a whim.

By your belief, God is the author of unbelief and sin. If a man refuses to believe the Gospel the man is not responsible, God is. God would be 100% responsible for that man going to Hell.

I do not see how any rational person can believe such a perverse thing.

By your belief, the preaching of the gospel is absolutely meaningless. The "elect" will believe no matter what you do, and the non-elect will not believe no matter how often they hear the gospel. Preaching the gospel would be a complete waste of time.

Jesus told the apostles to preach to all creatures. Why? Makes no sense whatsoever.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

So, this command makes no sense whatsoever if your belief is true. However, if any man can hear and believe the gospel of his own free will, then it makes perfect sense.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God has provided one way of salvation, and that is by trusting on Jesus Christ. If a man believes the gospel and trusts Christ, then God is just to save that man. And if that man of his own will rejects Christ, then God is just in sending that man to Hell.

 

And if a man is left in his blindness and unbelief because God "passed over" him and would not regenerate him, then he cannot be held responsible for not responding in faith. God will not hold anyone responsible for not doing something he was incapable of doing. That would not be justice by any stretch of the imagination.

Does God have the right to pass over some? Of course. But that is not the God of righteousness and justice that I read about in scripture.


Sorry OR. We are normally in agreement on most everything, but this time we seem to be at odds. You know I :love2: you though.

 

People are accountable for their sins. The reprobate will be be condemned to eternal hell by God's righteous judgement.

The command of the Lord (which we also need to echo because of the Great Commission) is to repent and believe. Of course people in their natural state of being dead in their sins can't respond in faith. But that does not absolve them of their responsibility. People are accountable to God for their rebellion to Him.

It certainly is justice -- it's just not mercy. Don't confuse the two. The Lord does not have mercy upon each and every person. He hardens those He wishes to harden and literally mercies those He wishes to mercy.

I'm glad you approve of God's prerogatives.

Yet here you're taking back what you just said previously. God's righteous judgement is not in the least compromised by passing over some.

 

Jesus has paid for the sins "of the whole world"
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Exactly. People are condemned for unbelief.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And yet God commands all people to believe. Why would God command a person to believe if it is impossible for them to believe and then condemn them for their unbelief? That is not justice.

Smart alec.

 

Amy, if what you said is true...

....and If God desires everyone on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some and reveal it to others?

For example, if 2 Peter 3:9 means that God wants all people to come to repentance and none to perish, why does Peter say in 2:9 that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgement?

Someone earlier stated that some people are evil and hate God, therefore, God gives up on them. But God doesn't give up on others.

But, how is that different from saying God elects some to salvation and brings those He desires to salvation, while leaving others in their sin and unbelief?

peace to youraying:

 

That is absurd if your belief is true. They cannot repent because God will not allow them to repent. That would make God 100% responsible if they go to Hell.

If your belief is true, God is like a little spoiled child who sets out all his toys and then takes a hammer and crushes some simply for fun.

If your belief is true, God could cause all to believe. But for reasons outside an individuals control, God forces some to believe, and forces the rest to not believe.

As I wrote before, this would make the preaching of the gospel completely meaningless. Those whom God gives grace and causes to believe will simply believe no matter what, and those whom God chooses to damn will not believe no matter what. The gospel would be irrelevant.

What you fail to understand is that God has one way of salvation and one only. A person must trust on Jesus Christ for salvation. God will show those who trust on Christ mercy, those who refuse to come to Christ he will show wrath.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

What Paul is saying here is that the Lord is showing how longsuffering he is to save any sinner. The Bible shows that God is not willing that any man should perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse goes right along with 1 Tim 1:16 showing that God is longsuffering. He gives a person many chances to repent and believe on Jesus.

Now that would make no sense whatsoever if God has already determined if a man believes or not.

Now when you go to Romans 9, it is speaking of Pharoah. God gave Pharoah many chances to repent. God was very long-suffering toward Pharoah. I cannot imagine any other man who would not respond to God after seeing all the miraculous plagues God brought on Egypt. But Pharoah would not repent, therefore God was just in pouring out his wrath on him.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God does know before who will believe and who will not. He gives every person a free will to choose to believe or not believe. And he has already determined he will be merciful to those who believe, and show wrath to those who do not.

Now, is it right for God to make a man which God knows will not believe? Yes. If God did not give them a chance to live, that would not be right. They would have no choice to believe or not believe. And for there to be love, there must be choice. So God must even create those who refuse to believe. God does not force them to believe or disbelieve, he does not create them incapable of believeing. But God does know beforehand who will choose to believe, and who will not. But of love, he must give them life, and a free-will, that allows them to choose to believe for themselves or not.

Do you have any kids? I do. And when they are very little we take care of them because they are unable to care for themselves. But when they reach a certain age, we must allow them to live as they choose. If I was telling my grown children exactly how they must live, I promise you they would not consider that very loving. And you know what? Before I had children, I knew there would come times they would not listen to me. There was even the chance that they would be absolutely rebellious and never listen to me. But that is the chance you take when you have children. You do the best you can to lead them in the way they should go. That is love. But love also gives them individual free will. They are not my prisoners, they are not my captive slaves, they are not pre-programmed robots.

And it is the same with God. He must give us free-will, otherwise there is no love. Without choice, you are nothing but a slave and a robot.

Does that make any sense to you?

 

I would like to add to what Winman said about our children. I used to require my son to mow the yard. Now if he refused, he got punished, and rightly so for disobeying me. But if I told him to mow the yard, yet wouldn't give him gas for the mower, would it be right for me to punish him for not mowing the yard? Of course not. But that is the Calvinist view of God. He commands everyone to believe but denies some the ability to do so and then condemns them to hell. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

Unbelief causes people to be blind, as Jesus said about Israel, they closed their eyes/ears/hearts and refused to believe, but they can still be saved "IF" they will believe.

Did you ever consider that to be a warning to unbelievers??

There's no reason for anyone to be "unrighteous", except "Unbelief".

God said his spirit would not always "STRIVE" with man, one "Calling" is all God is "Obligated" to make, and that is to account for Jesus dying for all sins, including their sin, but God is "longsuffering" with rebellious people, sometimes "Calling" numerous times.

But there comes at time when God stops calling, even sending a "Strong delusion" (Antichrist) to fool people into believing a lie and being damned,

"BECAUSE" they received not the "TRUTH", that they "MIGHT BE" saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

I agree with you again Amy. :thumbsup:

Obviously, you have children and easily understand the concept.

And even our own govenment was formed on this principle. When we were given the right to bear arms, do you not think that the founding fathers realized there would be a few that would use this right to do evil? You bet your bottom dollar they did. They knew that some would purchase arms and commit crimes with them. But for a people to be free, and able to protect themselves, you must take this risk.

And marriage is the same. Marriage is a trust. You cannot absolutely know for sure if your spouse will be faithful, many are not. But you join together in trust. That is love. Love necessarily involves risk.

God must allow even those he knows will not believe to be born. If he does not give them life, if he does not give them choice, then there is no love. They would be robots in the very same way that if God imposes faith on them.

And you know, Jesus said to some that it had been better had they not been born.

Matt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Here Jesus says that it would have been good if Judas Iscariot had not been born. But God had to allow Judas to be born, he had to give Judas the chance to believe or not believe. But God knew beforehand that Judas would not believe.

 

I think a better analogy would be....

I create a boy out of clay and tell him to mow the yard. I provide the mower and the gas. I provide everything he needs. He ignores me. In fact, he has a party on the lawn with his friends and they all damage the lawn, dig up the flower beds, and trash the hedge. They all deserve to be punished by spending eternity in hell.

I have Son. My Son agrees to take the punishment in the clay boy's place. He goes and does everything the clay boy had been commanded to do. He mows the lawn and cleans up the mess. He makes peace between me and the clay boy.

Now, the clay boy is still in denial. He doesn't think he has done anything wrong. I send my Holy Spirit to change his attitude. Once Holy Spirit changes his attitude, he repents and trusts my son's work of reconciliation.

I then decide, according to my own purpose and good pleasure before the foundation of the world, to send Holy Spirit to convince some of the clay boy's friends to repent and believe as well. I don't send Holy Spirit to everyone, just to the ones I have decided to have mercy on.

I get to do that because it is my lawn and I don't owe anybody anything.

I could have sent them all to hell for being disobedient, but I have decided to have mercy on some. That demonstrates my righteousness and holiness as well as my mercy and compassion. If you don't agree, well, I don't answer to you. I made you out of clay as well, and you don't get to talk back to Me.

Everyone whom my Holy Spirit came to repented and believed the story about the Son who took the punishment and brought peace and reconciliation.

The rest were sent to hell, just as they deserved.



Of course, every analogy will fall short in some places... but this analogy more closely represents the truth found in scripture.

peace to youraying: