Frustration over debate about Calvinism

According to Calvinism, God doesn't supply the mower and the gas to all people, only some. That is why some won't be able to mow the yard.

Yes, that is all of us.

Which clay boy did you son take the punishment for, the one that had both the mower and the gas? Or the one that had only the mower?


I won't go any further with your analogy because it is already too messed up.

 

Not so. God provided general revelation in creation (Roms. 1) that renders everyone without excuse because they rejected it. That is providing the "mower and the gas".

OK, but you still haven't answered my questions.

If God desires every person on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some people and reveal those things to others?

peace to youraying:

 

Read the surrounding context. He tells you exactly why.

To those who reject, it is taken away. To those who have a little, more will be given.

 

What is rejected? What is taken away? What is given?

BTW, you never answered my other questions. If 2 Peter 3:9 means God desires every person on the planet to come to repentance and not perish, why does 2 Peter 2:9 say that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment?

And, according to your interpretation John 10, the Parable of the Good Shepherd, that the "sheep" are already Jewish believers in God's promises about the Messiah....

...how can that be reconciled with Christ's statements that He lays down His life for the sheep and gives them eternal life along with His "other sheep" from among the gentiles?

You have added a pre-condition to salvation for both Jews and Gentiles... that is that they first believe the O.T. promises concerning the coming Messiah.

peace to youraying:

 

You give no evidence of such belief. God condemns no one to hell. We are all deserving of hell. God in His Grace choses to save some.

I assumed you were smarter than that but I see that I am wrong!

I don't see how a rational person believes he is comparable to God. That is unless he is like the fellow Isaiah talks about:

Isaiah 44:14-18
14. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16. He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17. And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Your rationale makes as much sense as the fellow in the above Scripture who whittled his god out of a piece of wood. Unregenerate man has no free will. His will is in bondage to sin. Consider Isaiah again:

Isaiah 55:11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In case you haven't figured it out yet the elect are the whosoever will.

In case you haven't figured it out yet the elect is the one who will trust Jesus Christ.

 

Calvinists try to use Romans chapter 9 to prove their false doctrine, but they do not read the chapter carefully and thus misunderstand it. If you read the first verses, it is speaking of those who believe.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Faith is always based on a promise. When God promised Abraham he would be the father of many nations, that was the promise. And even though Abraham was very old, he believed God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This is explaining that the promise to Abraham to be the father of many nations would be fulfilled by those after him who believed the promises of God.

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Again, this chapter is speaking of those who have faith, those who believe the promises of God.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Again, this is speaking of faith. God predestined before time began that those who believe his promises would receive eternal life. This is what election means. This gift will not be of works, but faith (but of him that calleth). Jacob believed the promises that God had given his father Isaac, Esau did not. Jacob tricked Esau into selling his birthright because Jacob believed in the blessings promised to his father. Esau sold his birthright because he did not believe God's promises.

Now, it says God will show mercy on whom he will, and show wrath on whom he will.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God has determined that those who come to him by faith (believeing the promises) will receive mercy. Those that try to work their way (him that willeth, nor him that runneth) will receive wrath.

You see, if you neglect to read the first part of the chapter, you will not understand the rest of the chapter. The whole chapter is contrasting those who believe versus those who try to work their way. And God has chosen to show mercy on those that believe, and show wrath on those who try to approach through works.

And this is shown in Romans chapter 10

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The Jews had a zeal for God. That is a compliment. But they tried to establish their own righteousness through good works. But God doesn't want their good works, he wants faith. So they failed to submit themselves to the method God chose for salvation.

And this is what Romans 9 is talking about, in fact, Romans 10 is just a continuation of the same subject being discussed in Romans 9.

Romans 9 talks of Moses. Moses had faith in God. Go to Hebrews 11 and it tells of the great faith of Moses.

Pharoah did not believe God, even after seeing numerous miraculous plagues sent by God. At one point he almost repented.

Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

But Pharoah was feigning belief. As soon as the plague was past, he stubbornly refused to let the Hebrews go.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

God gave Pharoah, many, many chances to believe. How could he not with all the miracles he saw? But, Pharoah was stubborn and hardened his own heart. So Pharoah was fit for destruction. And this is what Romans 9 is saying.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God knew Pharoah would not believe, even when he saw God's great power. So God was just in demonstrating his wrath on Pharoah.

But notice in verse 21 it says "of the same lump". That is important, and almost always overlooked. God did not create Pharoah any different than Moses. Pharoah could have believed if he so chose. But he refused. He was full of pride. The ancient Egyptian pharoahs considered themselves to be the descendants of the gods. Pharoah was not going to listen to the God of Moses and said so.

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Pharoah considered himself a descendant of the gods. He was not going to listen to Moses or anyone else. He was exceedingly full of pride, and exceedingly stubborn. This is why he was fit for God to show wrath upon.

But God did not make Pharoah that way, he was made of the very same lump of Moses who chose to believe.

And the end of Romans chapter 9 shows that the whole chapter is contrasting faith versus works and that God will show mercy on those who have faith, and wrath on those who try to establish their own righteousness by works.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Read the entire chapter and it will become clear to you. God has chosen to show mercy on those who believe by faith, and wrath to those who try to establish their own righteousness through works.

 

It's not will not allow some not to repent -- it's that none will repent on their own. Remember that repentance is a gift of God to His elect just as much as faith is.

People are 100% responsible for going to hell.

I shouldn't have to dignify remarks like yours because they are blasphemous. You are against Calvinistic doctrines -- we understand that. But to compare God to a spoiled child who hammers away at toys just for fun is just plain stupid of you. Try to come up with more reasonable objections.

God neither forces some to believe nor others not to believe. You have no grasp of the issues involved.

God is not willing that any of his elect perish -- not each and every person -- past, present and future.

And who are the "usward" ? -- That's right -- His own.

God does not merely know -- He determines, establishes, appoints, ordains.

The will of man is free in only one direction -- toward evil and away from God. That's not so liberating.

That mantra from the Arminian scheme of things is beyond tiresome.

You have no right to dictate anything to God. The audacity of your words is staggering.

Of course not. Your view is sub-biblical.

 

The unrighteous are kept under punishment until they turn:

Ez. 33:19 And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

He lays down his life to save believers. Unbelievers won't benefit.

Not at all. Rather, those who have been exposed to God's word and rejected it are immune to it. That's the point. They claim to be part of God's sheep, yet they have already rejected what he has said. Sheep are believers in God's word.

Inclusion into the community is another issue. In this context Christ is fulfilling God's promise to send Himself as a shepherd to those waiting. Those who have yet to believe what the Father has said do not have God as their Father..

 

OR, are you familiar with the term "circular reasoning" ? Because that is what you are demonstrating.

Reminds me of Alice in Wonderland.

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

 

Rippon

You too are guilty of circular reasoning.

Why should the elect have to repent? What do they have to repent of? And how can they perish if they are the elect?

Pure circular reasoning.

 

Rippon said

Hey, it's your belief not mine. I'm just making fun of it because it doesn't make any rational sense. You cannot give a reason for men going to heaven and others going to hell other than God chooses to be merciful to some, and to show his wrath on others.

And believeing is not the reason, because God gives those he chooses to believe faith, and withholds it from the others.

 

But that is not what 2 Peter 2:9 says. It says God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, not "until they turn".

You, literally, have to change the words of the passage to make it fit what you want to believe.

That is not what the passage says. Jesus said He lays down His life for His sheep. He doesn't say anything about "believers" or "non-believers" in this passage.

If what you say is true, then no one could be saved after Christ died, since they weren't believers when He died.

Everyone was an unbeliever as some point. To say "unbelievers won't benefit" is nonsense.

Again, you literally have to change the words of scripture to make it say what you want to believe.

Again, that is not what the passage says. You are reading it in, and ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

The sheep hear the voice of Jesus, their master. He calls them by name (not an open call to all and some respond) and each one that He calls by name follows Him. He lays down His life for the sheep and gives them eternal life. He has other sheep among the gentiles.

You interpretation cannot stand unless you change the words of the passage to make it fit what you want to believe.

You have added a pre-condition to salvation.... belief in the O.T. promises concerning the Messiah.

The context simply does not support your belief.

peace to youraying:

 

Because they are sinners.

They have to repent of their sins.

They won't, which is why the passage says God has delayed His coming so that none will perish.

NO, just reading a passage of scripture in context and believing what it says.

peace to youraying:

 

Actually, it is a smear and a caricature of his belief, not his belief.

That you are unable to see the logic of the reasoning, proves only that you are unable to see that it makes rational sense.

That God has revealed that truth in scripture is enough for me.

Apparently, you don't think God's judgment is good enough, or God's purpose is wise enough, God's righteousness is pure enough to make such decisions.

Perhaps you should give God advice on choosing who He wants to show mercy to?

Be sure to tell God He has to be "fair" according to your understanding of "fair" and that He has to give everybody "equal opportunity to believe" according to your understanding of "equal" is.

And most importantly, make sure you tell God not to interfere with someone's "free-will" (let's pretend they have "free-will, even though scripture says their "will" is enslaved to sin and Satan) to make their choice.

He gets to that because He is God.

I thank God He did not leave me to be master of my own destiny, but intervened in my life in spite of my will and brought me to salvation by the power of Holy Spirit.

Amen

peace to youraying:

 

Of course he keeps the unrighteous under punishment. What you mean is that God is keeping them from turning. If I the unrighteous turn, then God as failed according to you, but not according to me.

The unrighteous become righteous every day, and God said so. You believe people become saved, so your objection is absurd.

No I don't have to change the words. The sheep never followed another, which means they followed God prior to Christs arrival. When I ask you who they followed prior to Christ's arrival, you will not answer. So, I can call them "those who did not follow another" if you like. However, those who don't follow another follow God, so I simply say "believers." Who did they follow before Christ arrived?

Why? Believers are sheep. Lots of people will believe God's word in the future.

Jesus laid down his life to save unbelievers? That's universalism.

Nope. You're doing that.

It's both, but Jesus is addressing one issue. In the context of people asking if they they are blind, Christ says they would not be guilty if they were. But since they say they can see, he's passing judgement upon them. Those who say they are blind are those who look to God to show them they way. When the Messiah comes they know him because they trusted God.

No, I embrace the words. Those who said they were blind did not fall under judgement (9:39-41). They trusted God and knew Christ when he came.

Who did they trust before Christ came? You say they were following another.

No, I have added a precondition to their rejection.

If you had been there and trusted the Father, then you also would have been waiting. You would, then, be included in the "sheep" not following another. When Christ came, you would know him.

Sheep are simply members of the Father's community. They did enter at one time, and then they waited.

If, on the other hand, you had reject the Father, and claimed you could "see" on your own, you would not "hear" Christ when he came. You would not follow, because you were already following another (yourself).

No it does not support yours. They did not follow another.

 

Good point, but Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that the whole world might be saved and "reconciled" with God.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

Now after your son, "cleaned up the mess" for the whole world, you come along and said, "I don't care, I'm still not going to be reconciled with some of them".

And how much "DISRESPECT" are you going to be showing for your son's death in suffering for all sins, if you don't try to save all???

Jesus was God, and he died for "ALL SIN", so what do you think God's intentions were???

And you don't love everyone either, does God break his own commandments???

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not..... knoweth not God;....for God is love.

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

That "Holy Spirit" came in the form of Jesus, and his "Effectual calling" couldn't get Israel to believe, even when offering his "Works" as proof.

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Still think so??? :laugh:

 

oops, posted in wrong thread

peace to youraying:

 

Ya made my day, at least I know, "It's not just "ME". :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

We all make mistakes.... Hey, Me4Him and I agree on something.:thumbsup:

God must have predestined me to post in the wrong thread.:laugh:

peace to youraying:

 

I'm doing my best to be nicer to you than you are to me. (Also, expect a lot of typos and other mistakes because I don't have time to edit.)

You posted this in the wrong thread. Also, you missed his point because you projected your own meaning upon the words. His point is that the origin of the believer's new "born again" life will be in the Spirit, which had not come yet.

You missed his context. Here's what he said under his comments of verse 5 (emphasis his):

Now, in addition to that, you quoted his allusion to John 1:13, but skipped over the reference. What he's doing there is assuming you know and understand what he said about "'human decision or a husband's will, for they are 'born of God." You obviously don't know his position, which is that the passage speaks of the comparison of being born of natural descent [from Abraham] (a father's decision "who is understood to take the lead in sexual matters") and the new birth (which is fulfilled after Christ's return from the grave, by Abrahamic faith). He finishes by saying he doesn't take a position on the relationship to faith, but he comes close to mine. And I can help him the rest of the way.

Finally, the allusion to Ez 36 involves God renewing his faithful. They are the ones crying out "we are dry bones," and God tells them this will not last forever.

:laugh: He'll probably give me a pat on the back.