Frustration over debate about Calvinism

The natural man and soul are as different as daylight and dark, we've all been tempted by the lust of the flesh to commit some crime/sin, yet the soul resisted that temptation,

If the soul followed every temptation of the flesh, then and only then could you say we're "Totally depraved".


Paul described himself, and man, as possessing the "WILL" in his spirit to do right but didn't find that same "WILL" in his flesh, who could save his soul from that "body of death".

Having the Will to be saved, won't save you, those who said "lord, lord" wanted to be saved but wasn't, this is equivalent to people who live a good moral life thinking they are as "Justified" as "born again believers".

God doesn't tempt man to sin, but he certainly tempts man to be saved by his calling, and note the word "Calling",

As Jesus said, he stand at the door of the heart and knocks, and "IF" man by "FAITH" opens the door, "GRACE" will come in,

Of course, "IF" man doesn't have faith and doesn't open the door, Grace can not/will not come in.

This theory that God's Grace gives us the faith to believe is "BACKWARDS" to what the scripture teach.

I'd suggest you learn to separate the "natural man" from the "Spiritual man", (soul) they are not the same.

 

So, the vast majority are not.

Sorry you're wrong, but then again you already know that.
And we appreciate you being so nice to us. Thank you :thumbs:

The qualifier of 'total' is a reference to the mechanics and is subject to the interpretive view of the group who is defining it. However this does not change the fact of the immutable truth that man is depraved to the point that he will never seek after nor coming to spiritual understanding apart from the direct intervension of God.

I have always held this view as have the Non-cals, they just see the mechanics operating differently in scripture.

You've made this statement before and I asked you to produce the post in which such a comment came from me. As of yet, you have failed to produce. I 'have' said you seem to 'lean 'toward' a hyper view but I have never stated that you are 'squarely in the Hper-Calvinistic camp". So either produce the post or appologize and hush the non-sense.

No matter how often you keep telling yourself that THEY say they are the same and it is THEIR lists. So it is your problem not mine Deal with your Reformed brethren who state they are the same things just one is more detailed than the other. They know their position much better than I do and they agree with each other.

Uh, maybe you need to read the article again. It doesn't state those who hold these view "ARE" Hyper, it states they have or lean toward hyper 'tendencies'. There is a difference.

 

First, don't apologize for your post, it was an honest question. Second, just keep listening to God's Word, don't pay attention to theories of men, you will be forever lost in confusion if you do that.

Just do what Jesus said:

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Come anyway you know how, Jesus knows your heart.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rest assured if you come to Jesus that he will in no way cast you out.

We learn of salvation from the Father, through God's Word and the Holy Spirit. This is why the verse says "the Father giveth". Yes, without the light that God gives us, we would be in darkness and never come. But a man can turn from the light if he so chooses.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jesus is the light that lights the whole world and every man. But some men hate the light and love darkness and refuse to come to the light.

You could not come to the light if Jesus did not provide it. So he deserves all the glory and praise.

You know, the sun can be shining, but if you choose to hide in a cave and never come out in the light, it avails you nothing.

Listen to the scriptures, not the theories of men.

 

My post initially 'addressed' to luggae:

Hasn't worked so far in 10+ pages, as to the 'arguments' bit, has it, Jarthur001? But you are certainly welcome to keep on tryin'! :tongue3:

Anyway, I'm back to offer this same above response above to Winman to whom I now also offer -

A big "Welcome to the Baptist Board!" :wavey:

Ed

 

Hey, I welcomed him too :1_grouphug:

 

A big thanks to Allan and Ed Sutton for the warm welcome. You see I am new here, but I don't mind mixing it up a little. Not for the sake of debate, I hate arguing. But I do feel we have a duty to stand for doctrine. That said, I in no way whatsoever think I know it all, or even very much.

I would like to respond to Luggae (who is also new, Howdy! ), who apologized earlier. He said this:

Luggae, it is true that there are those who sit in church and believe they are saved. I don't know if I agree if they never pray, I think they do, and even sincerely.

What I think the scripture teaches is that these people are self-righteous. They may sincerely believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he died on the cross and rose from the dead. What they lack is the understanding that they are lost sinners in need of Jesus as their personal saviour. And I think the scriptures show this.

John 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This has got to be one of the most fearsome verses in the Bible. To think that we might rest assured we are saved only to discover we are lost. I know this verse scared me. And note, they did actually pray to Jesus (unto me).

But look at what the followings verses say.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They are claiming good works as the basis for their salvation! They are not trusting entirely on Jesus and Jesus alone to get them to heaven. They are self-righteous, believeing within themselves that they are good and worthy of heaven on their own merit.

And we see this same story with the Publican and Pharisee.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Both men prayed to God or at least thought they did. Notice vs. 11 says the Pharisee prayed "thus with himself". I can't be dogmatic about this, but I believe this is saying God refused to hear this prayer. Oh, he thought he was praying to God, but God does not listen to prayers like this. And the Pharisee prayed and told how good and righteous he was, how he was better than others, and all the good works he did.

And you know, he probably truly did many good works. But that is not the point. It is not our good works that is a problem, it is our sin. We must recognize our sin and our complete inability to save ourselves. Then we will come to Jesus.

But look at the prayer of the poor Publican. He was so ashamed of himself that he could not even hold his head up. Look how humble he was and cried for mercy, the only hope he had with God.

And look how merciful Jesus was in vs. 14 and saved this poor wretched sinner!

And that is my hope too. I KNOW I am a wicked sinner. My only hope is Jesus Christ. As a boy I realized I was a terrible sinner (and I have done much worse since then) and asked Jesus to save me. If Jesus doesn't get me to heaven, then I am a goner for sure.

So Luggae, I sincerely think that is the difference. Many go to church and are satisfied within themselves that they are alright with God. And many are probably truly good people as compared to other people. But we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and they do not realize that, and so they never come personally to Jesus for forgiveness and eternal life.

 

edited...not worth the time...

 

We have no choice...but then we really have a choice. It appears you don't even know calvinism.

 

It appears that some people don't want to acknowledge what Scripture, in its entirety, tells us!

 

The natural man is the unregenerate man whether you understand or not!

It appears that you have no idea what the term "total depravity" means!

 

The natural man is the flesh, and "HE" is "NEVER..."Regenerated". (dust to dust)

"TOTAL" means obedience to every "lust of the flesh".

 

While I don't agree with your view, I admire your honesty in the approach that is needed for your view to work. Some that lean to your side won't even do that.

 

Grasshopper wrote;

First, you left out part of the passage. Look at verse 42

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

So, some could see, hear, and believe.

Also, these scriptures from Isaiah 53 are shown in Matthew and Mark. In Matthew Jesus himself shows the reason for their blindness.

Matt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So, here in Matthew 13 Jesus discloses the reason for their blindness. It is not that God caused them to be blind, it is because "their eyes they have closed".


As for God hardening someone's heart, I cannot remember if it was in this thread or another that I showed of Pharoah of Egypt. Over 15 times it says God hardened his heart. There is no better evidence in the Bible to prove if God hardens a man's heart than Pharoah.

But what do the scriptures say? Was it God that hardened Pharoah's heart, or was it Pharoah himself?

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Who hardened Pharoah's heart here? Pharoah.

Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exo 8:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

What you do not understand is what God means when he says he will harden someone's heart. Maybe a true story from my life will help explain.

Have you ever had a discussion or disagreement with someone who is very proud and stubborn and you were correct? I'm not saying you thought you were correct, but you were in all truth correct?

I have had a few discussions like this. One of the worst arguments I ever had with a person was with the lyrics over a song. Sounds silly, but it turned into a heated argument.

This person was singing that old hit by Bob Dylan, Lay Lady Lay. When it came to the part where Bob Dylan sings, "you can have your cake and eat it too", this person sang, "you can have your pig and eat it too". I kid you not, this is what this person sang.

Well, of course I laughed (bad move) and said, "That's not how it goes, it says you can have your cake and eat it too". Well, this person got very angry and insisted it did not and they were correct. I told them they were wrong and that "pig" would absolutely make no sense, and that the reference was to Marie Antoinette, which she is supposedly to have said during a famine in France.

Look the lyrics up for yourself and you will see I am correct. I am not always correct, but in this case I was, and I knew it.

Well, this person got so angry at me, because I had pretty much proven her wrong (yes, it was a young lady), that she would not speak a word to me for weeks! And I mean literally not one word, she refused to speak.

Now, I was right and she was wrong, but I was not very tactful and offended her. I made her look foolish. I insulted her pride. And what I did was harden her heart.

And this is how God hardens a persons heart. He does not make them incapable of seeing or hearing, he corrects and points out their sin which offends their pride and self-righteousness. And in their great pride and fear of being wrong they harden their own heart against God.

And you see this with Stephen in Acts. He made these Jews so angry by confronting them with their own rebellion against God that they stoned him.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

and further...

Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Now, I can't be absolutely certain about this, but I believe in vs 57 when it says "and stopped their ears", I believe they actually covered their ears or perhaps stuck their fingers in their ears so they could not hear Stephen. That is how angry and rebellious Stephen had made them by telling them the truth.

So, God does not make a person incapable of seeing or hearing, he makes those who are proud and self-righteous angry by exposing their sin, and they stubbornly refuse to see or listen of themselves.

 

I had said that most non-Calvinistic believers are in the Arminian camp. Saying I am wrong doesn't negate that obvious fact.

From your thread called:"Hyper-Calvinism and it's(sic) beliefs" there was a post of yours numbered #128 on 4/27/08.

You had said:"But again, this isn't about me,it now boils down to you and those who actually know Calvinism and what views constitute an H-C (of which you have already agreed you fall squarely into) are the ones at odds here."

So much for the nonsense you charge me with.

Wrong again. If I am not at all hyper-Calvinistic on one list (the detailed one) how can I then be leaning in the direction of hyper-Calvinism in another list which is supposedly identical? Things which aren't the same are different. Logic is not your forte.

And I had said that Dr. White (and Rip)doesn't have any Hyper-Calvinistic baggage. H-C baggage doesn't mean the same thing as being Hyper-Calvinistic -- it means leaning toward that view. Reading attentively will help you understand more.

I had mentioned James Ellis's article :"What is Hyper-Calvinism?" At the end of it he closes with :"... honest theological discussion should refrain from labeling legitimate variations within orthodox Calvinism as 'Hyper-Calvinism'." Take his advice.

 

A lot of so-called "Calvinistic" views come from anti- or non-calvinistic thinkers. Those theologies do not even resemble what we believe or teach.

One example is double predestination. Since we believe all the elect will be saved and they are predestined as such, then automatically the non-elect are "predestined" to hell.........Not so, in Calvinism, they are passed by to their own fate.

Cheers,

Jim

 

What's the difference?

 

If it were not for God's election of some to salvation no one would be saved. I quote John Dagg once again:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

 

Repeating constantly John Daggs flawed understanding of how salvation operates will not change the fact it is wrong.

 

Dagg is scripturally on the mark. His words are biblically-based. I don't see how a true believer could object with them.

You need to get specific. Do you think that God doesn't have to work in the sinner to will and do? Is salvation possible without God's intervention?! Because if you think that Dagg is all wrong and has a "flawed understanding of how salvation operates" then you must think the opposite of what he has stated.

 

Amy, the difference is that humans are already sentenced to death, both spiritual and bodily. Whilst the blood of Jesus is sufficient for all, it is efficient for the elect of God. it passes by the remainder to their OWN damnation, not elected by God to damnation. This is the difference.

Cheers,

Jim