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Futurists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Jul 25, 2002.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I dealt with your "this generation" interpretation and offered an equally valid one. You can disagree and that is fine. Chances are though that you will not accept it as valid and bring it up again when you are talking to someone else as though you haven't heard our position.

    As for the "at hand" passages in Revelation and the "coming soon" and similar language, another valid interpretation can be accepted.

    Futurist of the pre-trib persuasion believe in imminence. We believe that the rapture of the Church can happen at any moment. In other words, nothing needs to happen before the rapture. So, it is still "at hand". Since we believe in imminence, we understand that the early church thought it would happen at any moment. So the return is still "at hand". John had no idea of a time gap this long. He didn't know. Do you understand? Jesus was saying that it is so close that it could happen at any time. Remember, one day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

    Jesus also said that He was coming soon. Your interpretation would take this to mean that chronologically, Jesus was coming again in not too many years.

    While that is possible, I offer the following: Jesus was not talking chronologically. He was talking about the way in which He would come. This interpretation would agree with the references about Him coming as a thief in the night. So again, your prooftexts are shown have an equally valid interpretation by the futurists.
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Actually, Gentry is suspect. It really wouldn't matter how many he listed as support. You and I both know that numbers don't in and of themselves prove anything. My point was that your position demands, dare I say hinges on, a pre-AD 70 writing of Revelation. My position doesn't hinge on such issues. Don't forget, the people he mentions need to have it pre-AD 70 for their position. So of course they are going to say that.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Actually, it's not. There is an excellent book for the early dating of the book of Revelation during the reign of Nero entitled Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. He presents absolutely great exegetical, Biblical evidence for the early date. [​IMG]

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]But Ken, think with me here. He can at best only present evidence. Considering the position relies on such a matter, you would think he could come up with much better than he has. Unless of course that is the best he has.

    Gentry wrote his dissertation on the dating of Revelation because those of his position just didn't have any quality work on the issue. As Dr. Thomas of the Master's Seminary and also Dr. Ice have pointed out, there still doesn't exist any quality work on the issue.
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    That's precisely the hub of the problem with futurism, you have to look through a special mental lens to arrive at their interpretation. You have to have a "futurist attitude" to agree with futurism.

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, I find myself repeatedly disappointed by your posts on eschatology.

    If you read Scripture in its normal sense, you will come away with a futurist interpretation. There is nothing tricky about it. You do not have to be "pro-futurism" to believe or accept it. If you think you have discovered the problem, I would invite you do a little more study.
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Glen, I have seen better from you. You apparently don't like the Left Behind stuff. Well, neither do I! :eek: I think LaHaye takes all kind of licences that aren't his. He should stop and do something that honors the Lord.

    You, however, recommend reading Josephus? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: So, we should really interpret the Bible using an unsaved Jew, hired by Rome, to record their conquests. Sounds compelling to me. What have I been thinking using saved people as a helpful (not determinative) guide? Oh, did I mention that Josephus wrote from a certain perspective? Any chance any of his writings were embellished or tweaked to fit the approval of his bosses? Since his writings aren't inerrant, there really is no guarantee about any of it. Sure I believe it is acceptable and mostly reliable, I don't interpret the Bible with it.

    How about putting Josephus down and the latest "elder" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: material and reconciling all the tough passages with just your Bible.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    That's all anyone can do - postmills, premills, amills - present the best exegetical evidence to support his position. We must pray for enlightenment to understand which position is in agreement with the Bible as a whole.

    Ken
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    At hand... Soon... Shortly... Why do futurist take these words out of context and stretch them 2,000 plus years?... A generation is 40 years!... What you futurist need to do is check all these recent religions... Church Of Christ... Mormons... Jehova Witness... ect. Christ is coming soon join us before the end... theology! You don't believe it read your history. All these church spang up because of that belief. We are the elect of God and everybody else is going to hell. Follow us or you don't go!... God called his people sheep and they will follow anyone as that is their nature. Why do the futurist spin the eschatological roulette wheel is beyond me? Why they look at something literal in Revelation that has always been symbolic I don't understand?
    I'm a Partial Preterist Amillennialist as that is the only position that makes any sense!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Preach the word said:
    So you want us to swallow what you state... hook... line... and sinker? Sorry I can't do that!... Date setter have been setting dates for ages and none have come to fruition. You jump on us and say what we believe is wrong but those of your belief have been using symbolism and applying them for decades with every change in society. I could go on and on but I won't and let other brethren take it from here if they have a mind to! I'm settled in my belief of eschatology and have complete peace of mind!... A Primitive Baptist Partial Preterist Amillennialist... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Brother Glen,

    So do you believe that Christ will return bodily to the earth?

    My apologies if you have already answered this in another post.

    Thanks in advance.

    HankD

    [ July 28, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Yes... I said I am Partial Preterist and definately believe in a bodily return of Jesus Christ to raise the bodily saints of God!... The scriptures teach nothing less... We will meet the Lord in the air and he will not touch foot on the earth!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    So Tyndale, let me follow what you are saying. Since some people of the futurist persuasion have been quacks and set dates (which I oppose), you should reject the whole system.

    Well, do you reject baptism by immersion just because the church of Christ does it?

    Do you reject the KJV since the Ruckmanites and those like Riplinger use it?

    Do you reject the Amill position since the Catholics use it?

    Does this make sense? If you want to reject futurism, do it on the basis of Scripture. I answered all of your "stumbling blocks". I could offer many that you can't get around since your position is faulty at best.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear brother Glen,

    Thank You. I have asked my questions and will ask in a spirit of love.
    I have no desire to lock horns with a brother but have a keen desire to know the thinking of others in the church.

    Having said that you responded to my question "Do you believe Christ will return bodily to the earth?"

    To which you answered

    Brother Glen, though I have been with the Lord many years now, I have not formulated a conviction concerning the details of His Second Coming apart from the basic "bodily return". By preference, I lean towards a futurist view.

    I would be very interested in your point of view (or any gifted brother/sister) of Zechariah Chapter 14 and whether you believe it has been fulfilled completely or it applies to the sack of Jerusalem by Titus (70AD) or His bodily return or is it an allegory or whatever.
    So many elements of this passage seem desperately unfulfilled to this date.

    In this passage in verse 4, The Lord's feet are said to touch the Mount of Olives with what appears to be a world wide cataclysm ending with the Nation of Egypt turning to the Lord and the Canaanite no more in the house of the Lord.

    Please believe me that this is not a challenge but a request to help me in deciding a point of view of the details of the Second Coming which I can hold "by faith".

    I'll abbreviate the passage...

    KJV Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
    21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

    Thank you in advance
    HankD

    [ July 29, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  13. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.
     
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Postrib,

    That's why I asked about Zechariah 14 and the Mount of Olives because He ascended into the cloud(s) from the Mount of Olives.

    HankD
     
  15. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    Your theory concerning "this generation" falls short of Biblical support. For example, notice all the uses of "generation" in the Gospels:

    Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30-32, 50, 51; 17:25; 18:8; 21:32.

    Not even one of these references use "generation" to mean the entire Jewish people over thousands of years. You may, however, fool someone by using "generation" to mean the Jewish people over thousands of years, but I do not think you will be so successful with Luke 9:27 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

    As I have already clearly illustrated, you cannot believe the coming of Jesus Christ is imminent because of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple being a prerequisite. Partial Preterists, on the other hand, can believe in the imminent coming of the Lord Jesus because all prophecy has been fulfilled except the second coming. Again, you fall short of Biblical support.

    The fact that Josephus was not a Christian only adds to the authenticity of his records. Josephus, being an unbelieving Jew, would not have gone out of his way to support the claims of Christians. However, his records are in parallel agreement with their claims and especially the book of Revelation which he would not have read. Josephus stated purely what he observed, and it just so happens to be somewhat (almost identical) to the book of Revelation...Well, maybe in the Futurists "fantasy world." You have yet to explain the poetic language of the Old Testament regarding the stars falling from heaven like figs, the sky rolling back as a scroll, etc. for the ending of temporal kingdoms. I suppose that literally happened. :rolleyes: I want to ask one question: If those things did not literally occur in the Old Testament, why must they occur literally in the New Testament???

    Concerning Zechariah 14, historical Christian writers such as Tertullian equated this prophecy concerning Jesus to His first advent in which He stood upon the Mount of Olives. Such contemporary writers as Matthew Henry described it as the Lord Jesus coming in judgment against apostate Israel. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament speaks of Jehovah "coming" to earth many times:

    Genesis 11:5, 7; Nehemiah 9:13; Psalms 144:5; Isaiah 31:4; 64:1; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:4.

    Futurists misunderstand the symbolism in Biblical prophecy and fail to appreciate the poetic and symbolic intent of which the Holy Spirit conveyed it to man. Zechariah 14 is extremely parallel to the "Olivet Discourse."

    "For I will gather all nations [The Roman army was composed of men from the farthest regions.] against Jerusalem to battle [Luke 21:20]; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled [Matthew 24:17], and the women ravished [Luke 17:35]; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity [Matthew 24:16], and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." (Zechariah 14:2)

    Daniel wrote, "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." (Daniel 7:13). Jesus was said to have "came with the clouds of heaven," but this is not referring to His second coming because He appeared before the Father in this scene (cf. Exodus 16:10; 19:9, 16; 34:5; Psalms 78:23; Nahum 1:3)

    Exodus 19:16 even refers to the "voice of a trumpet." Exodus 34:5 speaks of God "descending in a cloud."

    "The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." (Isaiah 19:1)

    Exodus 16:10 refers to the GLORY of the LORD in a CLOUD.

    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)

    [ July 30, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Primitive said:
    Your theory concerning "this generation" falls short of Biblical support. For example, notice all the uses of "generation" in the Gospels:

    Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30-32, 50, 51; 17:25; 18:8; 21:32.

    PreachtheWord replys:
    You demonstrate your ignorance over the issue at hand and prove your own bias. Jesus mentioned many different events. Then He said that - this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. So let me use your hermenuetic: I will force feed the meaning of some passages into the meaning of every passage? No thanks! :rolleyes: [​IMG] :eek: I will stick to context as the primary reason to interpret something. Don't forget, some of those are parallel passages. They aren't independent of each other. Next.

    Primitive says:
    Not even one of these references use "generation" to mean the entire Jewish people over thousands of years. You may, however, fool someone by using "generation" to mean the Jewish people over thousands of years, but I do not think you will be so successful with Luke 9:27 - "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

    PreachtheWord replys:
    Hey, I don't say it means the entire Jewish people over thousands of years either. STOP USING STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS THAT AREN'T BASED IN TRUTH. Next.

    Primitive says:
    As I have already clearly illustrated, you cannot believe the coming of Jesus Christ is imminent because of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple being a prerequisite.

    PreachtheWord replys:
    I do not know a single pretribber that says the temple has to be rebuilt before the rapture. One of the foundations of pretrib theology is imminence. Next.

    Primitive says:
    The fact that Josephus was not a Christian only adds to the authenticity of his records.

    PreachtheWord replys:
    Again, you confuse similarity with fulfillment. Also, you think that Josephus had no reason to be biased for Rome (hint hint: he was hired by them). :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Come back with fact and stop trying to set aside something you don't understand.
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    [ July 30, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  18. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Primitive, stay calm, don't be nervous, nobody is judging you, you are among friends. What have I not offered an answer to?
     
  19. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    I apologize for the unnecessary remark, and I will delete it. Of all the texts I posted, you have not one comment? In your view of eschatology, the "Antichrist" will take up his abode in the newly rebuilt Jewish Temple. Therefore, the Temple is a prerequisite to the "Great Tribulation."
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Primitive Baptist I agree with what you said... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ July 30, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
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