Gen 12:3

Winman, although I personally believe that Ro 11 does indicate that there is yet to come a spiritual revival amongst the Jews where there will be a general incoming of them to Christ, I do not see the passage supporting the restoration of a literal kingdom of Israel.

......Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever.....Mt 21:19

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her. And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee; and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:20-24

 

So what we have there in Mt 21 is simply our Savior losing His temper at a tree because it didn't feed Him? And that's it? I think not. The day before He had made His triumphal (and last) entry into the city and had later cast the moneychangers out of the temple. Now it was the next morning and in this same passage He tells the disciples “If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea, it shall be done.” He said 'this' mountain, indicating where they were exactly at that moment, Jerusalem. I suggest to you that 'this mountain' is hyperbole/symbolism for this mountain [SINAI]:

For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them; for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: Heb 12:18-21 (see Ex 19:12)

....and this mountain:

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Rev 8:8

The 'mountain cast into the sea' is hyperbole for apostate Judaism along with their law covenant being judged and dispersed among the nations.

His judgement on the fig tree”Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever” is symbolic of that also.

 

There's much meat in your post I wish I could comment on Brother. You reference Mt 23 which I have heard designated as the 'Woe Chapter', and that for good reason. Christ pronounced many judgments upon that generation during this last appearance to Jerusalem. But I would like to expound on the text from Mt 21 a bit more.

Winman makes a valid point, as he often does, concerning the element of 'faith' in this passage:

This is the verse he refers to:
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea, it shall be done. (v 21)

Winman's 'take' on this passage is typical of what is generally believed, the emphasis being put on 'If ye have faith, and doubt not”, as a lesson for the importance of our faith when Christ was actually speaking of the faith of His disciples, and all the while missing the real underlying prophetic message of it. And there's actually nothing new in what Christ had to say to His disciples here, He had told them this before. The faith of His disciples was to be VERY instrumental in bringing about judgment on, and casting this mountain into the sea. Indeed, it was through their eyewitness accounts given to the Jews that the Spirit, the Comforter, convicted the Jewish world of the judicial murder of Christ. Just as the Jews judicially murdered Christ, so did God convict the Jews, in a judicial manner through His witnesses the disciples, of the crime. God first reversed the Jew's unrighteous judgment on His Servant and declared Him to be righteous by raising Him from the dead, and then He judged those Jews as guilty for that murder. I've posted on this topic before; here it is once again:

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak [HAVE FAITH AND DOUBT NOT, MT 21:21]: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts[HAVE FAITH AND DOUBT NOT, MT 21:21] , not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'world' meant here is not the human race in general. This is the 'world' that Christ is referring to:
Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20.

To paraphrase the 8th verse:
When the Spirit comes, He will convict the Jews of the judicial murder of Christ, and will declare Christ to be righteous in that God has raised Him from the dead, and will pass judgment upon this generation.

Read, listen, hear the Spirit convict the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


(continued next post)

 

(continued from above)

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

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...who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Peter 2:23

 

Hello Brother Willis, thanks for commenting. It's not clear to me exactly what you mean by this, perhaps you could clarify, but I would caution against rigidly adhering to 'all encompassing' rules of interpretation.

I quote Henry Hammond:
"'Tis ordinarily said, that the Jews were a typical people, the whole divine economy toward them is doctrinal and instructive to us, not immediately or literally, but by way of Anagogy"

[Anagoge An`a·go"ge noun [ Greek ... a leading up; ... + ... a leading, ... to lead.] 1. An elevation of mind to things celestial. 2. The spiritual meaning or application; esp. the application of the types and allegories of the Old Testament to subjects of the New.]

It's my humble opinion that contained within the history given of physical Israel in the OT lies one huge type of the history of the visible Church also. But that's my opinion.

I agree. This was 'the restoration' that was to come; the 'building again' interpretated for us in Acts 15.

 

Sorry Percho, for some reason I've totally missed this post. I'll have to read back a little to get reminded what we were discussing.

Anyway, polls have been requested, topic seems relevant, so....... [bump]

As of this date:

Yes-15

No-7

The Christian Zionists dominate.

 

Excellent post Brother. And I followed your line of reasoning with the scriptures. The true children of the Heavenly Zion, the mother of us all, are spoken of in Ps 87, and are all those that have been born from above, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles, whether Old Covenant or New Covenant. There is no distinction between the two.

Again, excellent post.

The popular use of the term 'Judeo-Christian' does not suit well with me at all. The two mix like oil and water. There are prominent Rabbis on the 'Judeo' side that have a problem with the term also. Law and Grace are opposing polarities.

 

I don't know much about Messianic Jews either, though I have enjoyed reading some of Israel Shamir's articles (don't know if he falls into that category or not), but if they fit this definition then they are of the true Israel:

for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3

 

“Christian faith is not compatible with Jewish exclusivity. The mission among Jews can be successful only if the whole complex of Jewish separatism is removed, when their hearts are circumcised and they are brought into full communion with the people they live amongst. I have met in Israel with some 'messianic Jews', who were full of hate to the native people of the Holy Land. Not surprisingly, they thought Jesus Christ came just for Jews, and the Holy Land was theirs, too; they worshipped the Israeli Army and the flag of Israel. For them, the pivotal moment of history was not the Resurrection, but the Destruction of the Jewish Temple. In other words, they only pretended to be Christians, or not even that, as they preferred to be called 'messianic Jews'.” Israel Shamir
http://www.theandros.com/second.html


"...they preferred to be called 'messianic Jews'...."

Shamir brings out a good point here. Why the objection to being called 'Christian"?

 

OR, YOU"RE BACK! THAT MAKES ME HAPPY! I've been wondrin' about you. (don't worry, the Howards and the Bakers buried the hatchet decades ago)