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Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning - A Different Perspective

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by 2Pillars, May 21, 2019.

  1. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    I directly quoted what you said earlier. I did not delete nor add to it

    Your use of Elohim is interesting. It doesnt matter if its used as a sing or plural, God has never been physicalky formed. That is heresy

    El is singular the im makes it plural. In Hebrew the verb dictates the noun ie a singular verb (bara) means that the subject is singular ie 1 God the im indicates that the Trinity was at work in creation. If the verb had been plural then multiple Gods would have been meant which is heresy

    Again, YHWH is where we get Jehovah from and is in fact the covenant name of God. It speaks of Gods covenant faithfulness ie eternal love or mercy and grace.

    You keep referring to God having been physically made, it is a lie God is eternal outside of time. Neither created nor destroyed

    Your understanding of YHWH is seriously seriiusly flawed and in heresy

    You also seem intent on stirring up trouble here
     
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    Your position -which I am not sure you even understand implies that God did indeed create Himself

    If God is created physically, who created Him? Again this position is heresy
     
  3. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    None of the Godhead was created

    Neither God the Father
    God the Son (Jesus)
    Nor
    The Holy Spirit

    Jesus did take on human flesh when he came into the world to save sinners; however, he was from “before” the beginning of time just like the other 2 members if the Godhead. His incarnation is something that He embraced to identify w us, so that He could be our Savior
     
  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    OUTLINE of GENESIS


    Genesis 1:1 through 2:3 is the Account of Creation

    Genesis 2:4 through 4:26 deals with the creation of Adam (2:1-7), the establishment of the Garden as a place of dwelling for the man (2:8-20), the creation of Eve from Adam’s side (2:21-25), the fall of Adam and Eve (3:1-13), the curse upon all involved in the catastrophe known as The Fall (3:14-24), and the Introduction of the Offspring of Adam and Eve beginning with Cain and Abel (4:1-26)

    Genesis 5 deals with the Genealogy of Adam to Noah

    Genesis 6 through 11 deals with Noah and his descendants

    Genesis 12 through 25:18 deals with the Life of Abram/Abraham

    Genesis 25:19 through 26:35 deals with the Life of Isaac

    Genesis 27 through 37:1 deals with the Life of Jacob

    Genesis 37:2 through 50:26 deals with the Life of Joseph



    Preliminary Considerations:


    Elohim—is the generic name for God. It is the first word in the Book of Genesis and is found here in the plural form (EL is the singular form—the im ending makes it plural). Hebrew is much different than many languages in that the verb tense determines the tense of the subject. The subject is singular here meaning that even though it is seen as a plural, the subject is actually singular. This Hebrew construct is interesting in that what we have from the very outset of scripture is a testimony to “The Trinity”! Moses is indeed affirming that there is but One God in the use of the verb, but that there is something unique about this God IE, he is Triune: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


    YHWH/Jehovah or Yahweh: This is the Covenant name for God. This word is first used in Chapter 2:4 and speaks throughout the OT as a reminder to the Hebrew people that God is unique to them and that He is their Covenant (Promise Keeping) God. It is here that Moses seeks to inform the Hebrew people that the God who created the Heavens and the Earth, and later man is indeed the Covenant God of the Hebrew People IE, that they are the one and same God. The word YHWH is often referred to as the “Tetragramaton”, in Hebrew, it would look something like this HIH> (Remember that Hebrew is read from right to left. The letters from Right to Left are: Yod, Hey, Vav, and Hey).


    The uses of YHWH/Yahweh or Jehovah in the OT include:

    1. As the specific creator of man (2:4-7). God designed man’s body for a specific use, breathing in His (God’s) Spirit, thus man became a “living soul” according to the text.
    2. As the instructor or teacher of man (2:9-17) planting a garden as a special means of developing his stewardship over creation, through identifying the trees, naming the animals, and to realize the eternal consequences of his stewardship.
    3. In order to describe God as the benefactor of man (2:18-25) through giving the woman (Eve) to Adam and by granting to him all that he needed in the garden


    The Use of Ex Nihilo in Christian Thought


    Throughout Christian History, there has been the consistent idea that God created all things “Out of Nothing” or “Ex Nihilo” (as opposed to Creating using pre-existing material). This particular view is consistent with the Biblical Text and speaks to the Sovereign, Creative Power of God. Scholars such as John Calvin, Augustine, John Wesley, Matthew Henry and The Puritans all held to the fact that God did indeed create the entire universe and all it contains “Out of nothing” or “Ex-Nihilo”
     
  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    The Gap Theory of Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

    Pre-Adamic Man

    The issue of a 1st Creation or a Pre-Adamic race of people crept into the church during the Early-Mid 18th century. This was done in order to appease the Evolutionary Model of thinking and has neither basis nor warrant within the historic Church –nor should it. The idea is that in order to make Christianity appeal to the “masses of the highly learned” and in order to “explain” the idea of supposed various types of ancient humanoids IE, Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon etc. God somehow created a creation that somehow went awry or that He judged in anger. This reasoning is silly and an open back handed slap against the very character and nature of the God of the Bible, especially since there is absolutely no support for it in the Word of God. For a better understanding of who these people were visit either: www.answersingenesis.org or to www.icr.org . These ministries can assist and in fact have assisted many Christians to understand the origins and beginnings of mankind.


    The idea of a Pre-Adamic race is as follows: they believe that God created an entire creation between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, but that God somehow “messed up” and had to judge this race of people and then recreate the world as it is now in Genesis Chapter 1:2.


    Several critiques of this Pre-Adamic position:

    1. If this position is to be held, it must be held in opposition to scripture. Scripture makes it clear that death came upon the Earth due to sin (Romans 5:12). Hence, the Apostle Paul makes it clear that due to the sin of Adam, himself death (physical death) entered into the world, so how could death come upon a race of people before death had ever been introduced into the world? Paul says here that death entered into the world after they had sinned in Chapter 3, not before as this position holds.
    2. If God did somehow “mess-up” or fail in his original plan then He is an imperfect God. If He is an imperfect God then He is not Sovereign over all Creation, Perfect, and Worthy of worship!


    The Day-Age Theory


    Again, with the rise of educational elitism, the idea by some Biblical scholars was to make the Bible more appealing by insinuating that the days listed in Genesis Chapters 1 and 2 were not really 24 hr periods of time, but that they were in fact possibly millions of years. Again, this is a silly argument and without warrant from Scripture; however, it is a position that some Christians have come to hold so we must address it here.


    Critiques:

    1. It is true that in some places in the OT, that the Hebrew word Yom-often translated day does not mean a 24 hr period of time. This is especially true in Hebrew poetry and in both the Major and Minor Prophets; however, just because it is that way in these places does it mandate that here in the opening chapters of Genesis.
    2. The use of numbers like 1st, 2nd and 3rd day seek to reveal to us that Moses did indeed intend for us to understand the creation “Days” to be literal 24 hr periods of time (Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, and 31. We also see the 7th day marked out as a regular day in 2:2)
    3. Evening and morning further set forth the text into these appointed 24 hr periods of time.
    4. By adhering to a “Day-Age” once must ask if a day is truly a “Million Years” then what about the “Nights”, were they a Million years also? We understand time to be continual i.e., morning follows night and night follows day etc. So were there 500,000 years of day,and then 500,000 years of night? If so, would not all plant life die out during the 500,000 years of night due to a lack of photosynthesis, and then all other life ultimately die here upon Earth? Of course it would which is the point, again this Theory is without warrant in scripture and is just another way to marginalize the text of the Bible in order to accommodate the unbelieving.
    5. By maintaining the Day-Age Theory, the adherent totally destroys the significance of the Sabbath in the OT (Genesis 2:13, and Exodus 20:8-11).

    Remember in the OT, the people were to memorialize the Creative Work of God (See again Exodus 20:8-11). The creative work of God is seen in the text as good (Chapter 1:4, 12, 18, 21, 25. In verse 31 of Chapter 1, God Himself says that creation was “Very Good”). Thus we see the power of God demonstrated within the passage and that it was to be remembered as a Divine Work in which He (God) revealed his limitless power and glory. Hence, we should deduce that the World and all that is contained therein was indeed created within the 6 literal days given in scripture and that these days were in fact 24 hour periods of time.


    Theistic Evolution


    Theistic Evolution teaches that set the universe in basic motion and that through “Natural Processes”, the Universe came into being along with all of the planets, galaxies, and various types of life (animal, vegetation, and human). In other words, God set everything up or provided the basic building blocks and then allowed nature to take its course. This view is ultimately nothing more than Darwinian Evolution with God tagged on the back end as some Cosmic Genie. Theistic Evolution is really a denial of a personal God who is definitely involved in the affairs of men which makes God very distant and uncaring
     
  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    Perfections of God revealed in Creation

    1. God is eternal. We see here that God interrupted the silence of eternity past in order to display his Sovereignty for all to witness. God is not bound by time, hence His eternality; in fact, God created time for the use of man (so that life might be orderly and understandable to those without the wisdom and mind of God Himself. God lives in an ever present now.
    2. God is omnipotent (all-powerful). There is no limit to the acts which God can accomplish just because he is God. The idea here is that God spoke the universe into existence and that the universe obeyed His command, in fact His command was so determinative that the universe really had no choice but to obey His decree to the very fullest.
    3. God is personal. God Himself was personally involved in creation. As Historic Christianity teaches: The Father decreed it, the Eternal Son (Jesus) spoke it, and the Holy Spirit carried out the work (Genesis 1:2). God did not just wind up the creation clock and then let the world unwind as the Deists teach, but took great pride in His work of creation to the point of calling it good and very good (as if something other than good could ever emanate from God).
    4. God is united. The Bible teaches the Doctrine of the Trinity IE the 3 persons of the Godhead are united and indivisible from the Godhead proper. In Genesis 1:26, Moses writes “and God said, Let us make man in our image…” Notice the pronoun used is a plural pronoun not a singular pronoun as in my image but in OUR IMAGE! Again, the Trinity is involved in the working out of the Creation of the Universe.
    5. God is seen as Transcendent and immanent. God is above and before all things, yet He chooses to operate within His creation, to bless it and to even manifest Himself in it (an example would be in redemptive history and Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity taking on flesh in order to become the Savior of the World).
     
  7. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    The Uniqueness of the Hebrew verb Bara’

    When the text says that “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth”, it means exactly those words. The Hebrew verb which is used (Bara) means to create and the term is used exclusively of God Himself IE No One other than God creates (Bara’s) anything. Other Hebrew words with the same meaning are used to demonstrate man’s ability to create (usually Asah). An example of this would be when Solomon built (Asah) the Temple. Interestingly, the same verb (bara) is used in Psalm 51:10 by David after he had been confronted by the prophet Nathan in regards to his adultery with Bathsheba. In Psalm 51:10, David cries out “Create in me a clean heart, O God….”, here David uses this same word (bara) because he realizes that there is no good thing in him and that he can not change anything within himself ONLY GOD can change his heart (or create in him a new heart)!


    The portrayal of the Man Adam in the text:

    1. Seen as both Physical and Spiritual
    a. Physical Adam is seen as having a physical body which was made from the Earth or ground.
    b. Spiritual He was created in the image of God and in relation ship with God
    i. Adam was morally upright, he only did good things Ie what he did was pleasing to the LORD
    ii. Originally before the disobedience, Adam was seen as being without sin. He did not do anything which displeased the LORD.
     
  8. BenWest

    BenWest Member

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    Amen, a FUTURE event which happens at the end of the present 6th Day/Age in the creation of the perfect Heaven.

    Correction: Genesis 2:4-9 shows that Adam was "formed" by Lord God or Jesus on the 3rd Day before the plants herbs and trees. Adam shows up again in verse 19 when he names the creatures Jesus makes from the ground. This PROVES that Adam was "formed" by Jesus and later "created" in God's Image or was born again Spiritually and eternally in Christ by God the Trinity, on the present 6th Day, Genesis 1:27 the Day of Salvation.

    Amen. A small, miles wide, Biosphere where Adam could call home. However, he was not limited to the Garden since he was made in the likeness of Jesus with the ability to go anywhere in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. Humans will regain our likeness as Jesus at the Rapture.

    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

    From Adam's rib, to be precise. Gen 2:22 It's another proof of God and tells us of the FIRST successful operation, which ONLY God knew about, more than 3k years ago. Amen?
     
  9. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
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    I do not amen heresy!!!
     
  10. 2Pillars

    2Pillars Member
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    Dear Readers,

    The Son of God physically EXISTED even BEFORE the World was - separately from the invisible God Father when He was brought forth or BEGOTTEN - from the BOSOM of the Invisible Spirit of the Father (Jhn 1:18) and sent into our physical world in the beginning of Genesis, when God commanded and said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT; and there was light." Gen. 1:3

    The brightness of the glory of the Lord God (the Son) provided the light in the beginning (alpha) as he would also be the one to provide the light in the end (omega).

    It is also Biblical fact that the invisible Almighty God Father has its
    OWN SELF BEING separate from the Son - even before the world was. Here’s what the Son said during the time he was praying to his Father before his physical death on the cross in the New Testament.

    Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    The Son is reminding his invisible God Father of the Brightness of his Glory - a physical trait - that he shared with the Father even BEFORE the world was.

    Thus, YHWH or Jehovah, the Son, became the only God physically formed for us to see and witness - before there was none; neither there shall be after him. He was NOT created since He was God himself in the beginning; from everlasting.

    Note: The Almighty God Father is an invisible Spirit- the Spirit of Love - is without any Physical shape or form that no man hath seen at any time and changes not. - whose Real Name is NOT yet reveal to anyone at this time.

    God Bless
     
    #90 2Pillars, Oct 15, 2019
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  11. 2Pillars

    2Pillars Member
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    Dear Readers,

    A Mystical Union of God as One
    (Heb - echad), is Made in Heaven: Example - One of which is the Union of Marriage which is One Flesh in the eyes of God, according to the Scripture.

    Example: One in Unity is used in the case of Gen. 2:23-24. The husband and wife are described as One Flesh ( Heb -echad) in the eyes of God. The use of the Hebrew word "Echad" (One) in the text is only possible in the sense of Unity or as Collective One - A Mystical Union from Heaven.

    Gen 2 (KJV)
    v23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman,
    BECAUSE SHE WAS TAKEN OUT OF MAN. v24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: AND THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.

    And this Union of Marriage has a Biblical precedent: The Mystical Union of God (Elohim) as One God (Echad) collectively that is- the Unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - as One God that is supported by the Scripture.

    Since, BOTH the Son of God and the Holy Spirit - PROCEEDED FORTH from the Father - ALL THREE Divine Beings or Entities have exactly the same Spirit Essence as God - collectively - A MYSTICAL UNION OF GOD, INDEED.

    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (Elohim) is One (echad) LORD. (collectively that is)

    We can also understand John 10:30 in this sense, I and my Father are one - One in Unity not in number. It is also in this sense that thousands can be One like the builders of the tower of Babel in Gen 11:6. Even the millions of Christians can be One in this sense of Unity, according to John 17:21.

    [1Jo 5:7-8 KJV] For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (in unity).

    Therefore, the Plurality or Triune of God is One in Unity - NOT in numeric number, literally speaking as shown and illustrated above which is supported by the Scripture.

    God Bless
     
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  12. 2Pillars

    2Pillars Member
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    Therefore, the traditional belief that the Son only Physically Existed into this world AFTER he was born of our virgin Mary’ womb in the New Testament is WRONG and not supported by the Scripture.

    Heb 1
    v4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    v5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,*Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? AND AGAIN, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? v1:6 AND AGAIN, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Why do you suppose the words "AND AGAIN" are used repeatedly or emphasized in the texts- 2x? Let's continue reading.

    v1:10 And,Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    As I have explained before, the Son of God - called Lord God in the OT- was brought forth (begotten) BEFORE the world was…. and provided the Light (Gen 1:3) in the beginning of creation.

    The Son also MADE / FORMED or shape our physical worlds with his own physical hands - like a Potter would mold a clay. He was AGAIN sent into this world in the New Testament; made flesh; took the Form of a Man by being born of the Virgin Mary; and die for us to save us form our sins.

    v1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    God Bless
     
    #92 2Pillars, Oct 15, 2019
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  13. BenWest

    BenWest Member

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    Only Catholics have heresy. Are you Catholic? Amen?
     
  14. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

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    JESUS said: "Before Avraham came into being, I AM!” So, Who is the I AM? The Word is the Father, the Word is JESUS made flesh, both are One. The Word is from Everlasting to Everlasting, the Word -i.e.God- has not beginning nor ending. JESUS is the beginning and is the ending.

    In the beginning -in JESUS- the Word created the heavens (the 1st, and 2nd, and 3rd heavens, and tghe heaven of the heavens) and the earth and all things that are in. Without JESUS - the I AM - was not any thing made that was made. By His own NAME, JESUS, He was not known in the Old Testament-Exodus 6:v.3, His NAME would go to be known only and only when the Word would become made flesh later,
    precisely two thousand years ago or four thousand years after Adam
    . The Word was made flesh about 2.000 years ago, and before be born, the Word did choose His own NAME - JESUS - which is become the head of the corner.
    By the way, neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven given among men - but JESUS - , whereby we must be saved.

    JESUS and the Word, i.e.God Father, are One, although they both be two distincts Persons. God - the Word - is Spirit. And JESUS left very very clear, saying: Matthew 11:v.27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father-the Word-: and no MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father-the Word; neither knoweth any MAN the Father-the Word, save the Son, and he to WHOMSOEVER the Son will reveal Him
    . So ...
     
  15. BenWest

    BenWest Member

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    It's Jesus Christ, called YHWH in the Old Testament. He is the Light of the first Day, He is the only God ever formed physically or that ever will be formed. YHWH told us:
    Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Saviour.

    The Father spoke the Word which became physical on the 1st Day. Genesis 1:3 God has no physical features except those found in His Son, YHWH/Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Literal Word of God (Elohim). All of God's works are perfect.

    Amen. Jesus emptied Himself of His Image as God and was born in the likeness of sinful flesh.. He came to His own and His own received Him not. He came to the people He had made with His own Hands Genesis 2:7 and they called for His crucifixion.

    Jesus IS the Word. Elohim, called God in Genesis, is the invisible Spirit who spoke the Word (Jesus) into the physical world. Would you like to know what Jesus looked like physically, in the OT? Remember that NO man has ever seen God the invisible Spirit, but many saw Jesus in His Image as God.

    Amen. Jesus is the Son in the Trinity. Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Jesus is the ONLY God you will ever see with your eyes. Amen?

    Jhn 14:7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
     
  16. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

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    I think that you should always give biblical support for the things you say, what prevails is the Word of God, right?
    See, the Word is God the Father, He is Spirit (John 4:v.24), actually He has not flesh and bones. JESUS said it unto His disciples - Luke 23:v.39.



    See, the Father is the own Word. The Word was God (John 1:v.1). It is not correct or true to say "the Word became physical on the 1st Day", the Word became physical or was made flesh on the 4th Day, or around two thousand years ago or yet four thousand years after Adam. In the 1st Day JESUS was yet in the bosom of the Word, the Father. John 1:v.18 says: 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him. Furthermore, JESUS said: All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt.11:v.27

    We need to analyze more deeply what you did write.
    What man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Cor.2:v.11


    God said unto Moses: "I Am That I Am". This is not a NAME, I also can say I am that I am. This has nothing to do with a NAME, but a person as such as he is, i.e. in this case God as a Supreme Being. It is it. And God said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you-Exodus 3:v.14. It means: I my own sent you, there is not any kind of personal NAME here.

    On the other hand, God said: Exodus 3:v.15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my NAME for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. In this dialogue between God and Moses, here we can see what was really the NAME of God in the Old Testament. I cannot say different of God.

    By the way, when God Almighty sent His angel on the Mount Sina to speak with Moses, the NAME of God was in the angel and he said to Moses: "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

    Again. The own most High and Almighty God said to Moses: "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, this is my NAME for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations". We cannot say different of God about His NAME in the Old Testament as He said to the people of Israel. Otherwise is invention as the tetragram YHWY, a supposed NAME or nickname man invented fo God.

    Exodus 6:v.2-3 - 2 God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my NAME the Lord - Lord JESUS - I did not make myself fully known to them.

    Why did not He make His NAME fully known to the people of Israel besides "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, this is my NAME for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"?

    Answer: Because His NAME JESUS could not be revealed in the Old Testament, evidently, but only and only in the establishment of the New Covenant through JESUS, that is His NAME in my language. I have not any fear in to say that the NAME of the Word has nothing to do with the tetragram was invented by the spirit of man, or even by the spirit of Devil with the evil intention in denying the name of JESUS.



    Yes. In the book of Deut. 32:v.3-4 the Holy Spirit says by Moses in his last sing: 3 I will publish the NAME of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: all His ways are Judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.
     
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