Gifts of the Holy Ghost

Not so, my dear Doctor. I Cor 12 gifts (I dislike the term 'sign gifts') are reported reliably by Irenaeus in the latter part of the second century*.

Yours in Christ

Matt

*Irenaeus, 'Adversus Haeresus'

 

As others have said, the power of they Holy Spirit has not stopped (He is properly referred to as the Holy Spirit, not the HOly Ghost). The sign gifts are what have ceased. The book of James is very applicable to the church. The "twelve tribes" were the Diaspora, believers who made up the church. Salvation by grace as always been God's salvation and the HOly Spirit has not been withdrawn. In other words, ituttut, your theology is somewhat misguided in these matters.

Matt, I agree that the Baptist church cannot be excluded from what I said above. The truth is that true conversions are not necessarily the cause for huge growth in a particular church or denomination.

 

Agreed with that last point, Pastor Larry. Quality, not quantity should be our determinant

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

As much as many of us value the writings of the early Church fathers, their writings are not the final authority but the Bible.

HankD

 

Agreed. But the point I was making is that nowhere does Scripture report,as Doctor Bob asserts, that "tongues stopped shortly after the Corinthian catastrophe",whereas the evidence we do have from history eg:Irenaeus, is that they most certainly did not

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The fact that these were spoken of as Gifts of the Spirit distinguishes them from the natural inate potential abilities that everyone has. Lost people have these. Musicians, artists, professionals of various sorts and ordinary people who develope them to various degrees. The gifts described in the Bible are clearly miraculous in nature and I see no reson to seperate them into subcategories of ceasing and non-ceasing. Either they are all appropriate for today or they are all not appropriate for today. Service "Gift" seems to be a man created concept.

 

OK, I see.

I've always gotten the feeling that Paul was trying to discourage "tongues" in the 1st Corinthian epistle without actually forbiding them.

HankD

 

The fact that these were spoken of as Gifts of the

Not really ... when you look at the gift lists of the NT, you see that some are clearly "service gifts," things such as mercy, encouragement, administration, helps, etc. These are not clearly miraculous gifts. In fact, they are clearly not miraculous gifts. Lost people may have abilities and talents, but when they get saved, the ability becomes a spiritual gift to use in the edification of the body.

 

Paul, interestingly, does not seem to make any real distinction between 'natural' and 'supernatural' gifts eg: I Cor 12:28; cp also I Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11, Rom 12:5-8. I do not therefore see any Scriptural merit for making such a distinction

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Why would they be clearly not miraculous gifts? If I have no particular ability to teach and then all of a sudden I can teach with the best of them, that would be miraculous, would it not? If Paul was merely talking about inate abilities why lump them in with miraculous gifts. As I said before, I have no doubt that God would bless our development of abilities to further serve Him. The Bible doesn't seem to make it look like two different subjects.

 

God continues to talk today. Yes, we need to check our beliefs with the Bible. But, we should also be open to His doings beyond His own Words.

 

Singer222,

So, do you believe that God continues to give revelation today, beyond the close of the canon?

True, God continues to speak to His people, but not as in revealing new scripture.

God speaks to me through the prick of my conscience, the inner prompting of my heart, His revealed word, the quietness of prayer, the words of an associate. But not through what could be constrained as "new revelations for all believers'.

I am a preacher. God speaks to me through the reading and study of His word, and it is what He has said to me that I share with my listeners. But this cannot be equated with the revelation of, or the addition to, the closed canon.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

No to that -sorry, Trotter, I know your Q was to singer222. That is the classic hyper-charismatic error - to elevate prophecy to new post-canonical revelation; you only have to watch a few hours of TBN to see that in action. IMO, prophecy falls into two forms - preaching and also what I call 'directive' (which can sometimes have an element of prediction in it eg: Agabus' prophecies re the famine and Paul's arrest) eg: "I think that the Lord is saying that we really need to be focussing ministry and evangelism on the single mothers in the neighbourhood". But anything that sounds remotely like Benny Hinn's "God is nine", Kenneth Copeland's "God is 6' tall" or Jesse Duplantis' 'vision of heaven' is severely bogus.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Today we have illumination and application; but

as you said the canon is closed, or, the Bible has a back cover. No direct revelation. No need for it; everything we need is already given us in THE Word as illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

 

Matt, Wally,

Right on!

 

In the spirit of David Dimbleby, Richard, you asked the question - what do you think?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

There also seems to be a time when "sign gifts" such as healing ceased in the ministry of the Apostles - the above a possible proof to that. If not, why wouldn't Paul just lay his hands on him and heal him ?? Trophimus was a believer mentioned elsewhere in the Word(in Acts) a travel companion of Paul's.

I too believe that the sign gifts have ceased except possibly in places where they do not have the Word of God (eg. remote jungles of Africa) God may enable missionaries with supernatural gifts to "autheticate" the message as being from Him. Outside of that and where the Word of God is freely available, God generally only acts supernaturally providentially. Case in point - when i was 12, my mom and i were attending a Baptist church at the time. My mom had been diagnosed with a growth in her skull the size of a golf ball. My mom asked the Pastor to come pray for her as it says in James 5:14,15. He and 2 elders came to the house and we laid hands on her, annointed her and prayed. Long story short, she went back to the doctor who, after looking at the x-rays said the growth was no longer present. She was able to witness to the doctor of God's power. However, about 10 years later she was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease (ALS) and died in 1982, still believing God could heal her but He chose not to.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Again, i definitely believe that there are no longer the office of apostles nor prophets within the Church but do believe that "service gifts" do exist (helps, governments) and obviously, there are those that God has blessed within the Church as teachers.


Ray

 

Interesting then that you make a distinction that Paul doesn't

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

If tongues have ceased then knowledge must have passed away making us ignorant.
This also means that we no longer see through a glass darkly but we have seen God face to face. And that means that we understand everything and have all answers to every thing that happens.