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Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Ken Hamilton,

    You seem like you can understand the Word of God. Give it your best shot. [​IMG]
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    (John 5:40 NKJV) "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

    No one is willing to come unless God enables him. Unwillingness to come is the natural state of man.

    (John 6:44 NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    (John 6:65 NKJV) And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    (John 10:26-30 NKJV) "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. {27} "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. {28} "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. {29} "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. {30} "I and My Father are one."

    Jesus did not say that "you are not My sheep because you do not believe." If these people were His sheep, they would have heard His voice.

    Ken [​IMG]
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Brother Ray,

    I guess you should do better research before you make statements. [​IMG]

    The entire article is at www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/come_to_christ.htm .

    HAVE YOU TRULY COME TO CHRIST

    Arthur W. Pink

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By the way of introduction let us bring before the reader the following Scriptures:

    1. “Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40).

    2. “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28).

    3. “No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him” (John 6:44).

    4. “All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me: and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37).

    5. “If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple” (Luke 14:26,27).

    6. “To whom coming, as unto a living Stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious” (1 Peter 2:4).

    7. “Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25).

    The first of these passages applies to every unregenerate man and woman on this earth. While he is in a state of nature, no man can come to Christ. Though all excellencies both Divine and human, are found in the Lord Jesus, though “He is altogether lovely” (Song 5:16), yet the fallen sons of Adam see in Him no beauty that they should desire Him. They may be well instructed in “the doctrine of Christ,” they may believe unhesitatingly all that Scripture affirms concerning Him, they may frequently take His name upon their lips, profess to be resting on His finished work, sing His praises, yet their hearts are far from Him. The things of this world have the first place in their affections. The gratifying of self is their dominant concern. They surrender not their lives to Him. He is too holy to suit their love of sin; His claims are too exacting to suit their selfish hearts; His terms of discipleship are too severe to suit their fleshly ways. They will not yield to His Lordship - true alike with each one of us till God performs a miracle of grace upon our hearts.


    Ken

    [ September 20, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     


  4. First I would say that men are enabled by the word of God. Let’s see if we can scripturally illustrate that…

    Your first passage.
    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Ken, I am not one to pull a scripture out of context while attempting to understand what it is revealing to us. So, let’s take a look at your scriptures in context. In regards to the correct interpretations of verse 44, we should immediately ask the question, “Whom does the Father draw, and how does the Father draw them”? To find the answer to that question, shall we take a look at verse 45.

    V45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Verse 45. “Every man therefore that hath heard”, First they need to hear the good news. Romans 10:17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    The foolishness of preaching is used to save them that believe.. No efficacious election here.
    1 Cor 1:21
    For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to “save them that believe”. Where is election here?

    Look at what is affirmed in:
    Rom 10:14
    14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    God is saying that it does not happen without hearing and believing..

    It pleased God that by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Ok, again in verse 45, those that have heard and hath learned of the father, Christ said, these are the ones that cometh unto him.

    Heard and learned, later we will find that some or those are rejected because they did not believe. Scratch one irresistible call..

    So we know that God draws by the power of his word, yet we see that hearing is not enough. Those that hear and learn are the ones that come. Only those that hear and learn will come, so they are the ones that are drawn.

    So, what are the criteria here for coming to Christ? Hear and learn. This in and of itself enables one to come.

    As of right now individual salvific election without criteria is out the window. Your scriptures failed to produce a single thought concerning election that was not in your head already.

    Aaah, but you say that God gave them power to hear and learn. Yes, the word is the power of God unto salvation. But that’s a horse of a different color. Show me here where God shut anyone out due to race, creed, color, or election, and we shall deal with that.

    You say that, No one is willing unless he is given new life by God first, enabled by God”. Show me where God uses any other method to draw those to Christ that will come. Show me where God gave new life prior to the hearing of his word… Even Paul on the road to Damascus did not believe without hearing.

    Next….
    John 6:64-65
    64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Why did Christ say, “that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father”. Keyword, “therefore”. That means that God has already given us the answer. (Verse 64) “But there are some of you that believe not”.

    (What i promised to illustrate above)They were drawn by the gospel, they heard, they learned, (To learn the truth is not the same as believing the truth) but they did not believe. God called them, God drew them through the word, but he did not force them to believe. And because they did not believe, they were not permitted to come. Yet they were drawn.

    Go ahead, find your scriptures where it is said that God blinded them, you post em, and we’ll deal with them. I cannot disprove election completely with just these two passages, yet we can prove that they have absolutely nothing to do with predetermined salvational election.. You will have to look other places to find your evidence...

    I have done my absolute best to remain scriptural, even my words are paraphrases of scripture.

    [ September 20, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  5. 6. “To whom coming, as unto a living Stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious” (1 Peter 2:4).

    Ken.
    This one i didn't even have to look up. The one chosen here, his name is in the surrounding passages. This is so talking about Christ.

    Shame on you....
     
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Wait, wait, wait, guys. God does have criteria (or reasons) for his choice--the reasons are just not found within the person chosen, but rather, the reason is God's own purpose.

    ...for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Pastor Larry, I love you, and I am interested in learning. I am interested in discussing things with you, but i just am not very interested in what you are teaching. When you are ready to study together, perhaps we can engage in a learning experience. All that I have gleaned from you to this point is that you know everything, i know nothing. Now that may be true, but the all that you know is wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]I will make just a couple of comments.

    1. You think I think I know everything and you know nothing. Partially right and partially wrong. I know what I believe and I know I am a Calvinist in the historic sense and I know what you are saying is not what I believe. So therefore,I do know more than you about what I believe and therefore I imminently qualified to tell you that you are not representing Calvinism properly. However, I do not believe I know everything so you can rest on that.

    2. When it comes to discussing Scripture, I mention some verses and you wave them away with a "corporate election" statement without even attempting to give an explanation of the verses in their context. There are several verses in there that make the corporate view absolutely incompatible with Scripture. YOu say you want to study but when I suggest some verses to study, you don't even bother to interact with them.

    3. On "electional salvation" (a new phrase it seems), you have not given us any confidence that you know what you are talking about with it. For instance, Ray has consistently argued that God elects people who have first believed. But when pressed to show that relationship in Scripture, Ray has yet to come up with even one verse to demonstrate that. Ray asserts it without Scripture. That is the essence of scriptureless theology and Ray has been confronted on that a number of times. All that I have asked from you is to get in Scripture and let Scripture say what it does without you inserting your own thoughts about what it must say into it.

    4. About "whosoever" in John 3:16. I don't need to look up the definition. I know it ... It says pas ho pisteuon. The "whosoever" in English is the "pas" in Greek. It means "all." Yet is does'nt mean "all" without exception as some would have us believe. "All" is qualified by ho pisteuon ... the believers ... The whosoever is clearly those who believe. And every Calvinist in this forum agrees that whoever believes will have eternal life. The superiority in our position is that we can explain why people believe.

    5. About "respecting person," you have a God who respects those who are born in a better place, with better access to the gospel, with better parents, etc. You cannot simply ignore this fact. You must answer the question: Was God fair to the people that are born in communist Russia who had virtually no chance to hear the gospel compared to those children born in the US? Was God fair to those born in tribal Africa who had virtually no chance ot hear the Gospel? Surely had God cared about them and wanted them to be saved, he could have had them be born in a place where they would have been more likely to hear, couldn't he? Why didn't he? Does he not care? Does he not love them? Does he like the middle class American child better? Does he respect middle class america while disrepecting communists and tribalists? These questions, when dealt with honestly, will show the fallacy of your "respector of persons" argument.

    6. About prayer, from a previous post (perhaps you are not even reading them ... ): The bigger question is, Why do you pray at all? Would not the answer to your prayer be the unfair intervention of the Divine Being into the free will of man? And wouldn't it be unfair to everyone who doesn't have someone praying for them if God only works on those who get prayed for? To me, this introduces a large element of injustice into your position and makes God a respecter of those who know pray-ers while leaving behind and untouched those who do not. Are you not praying for God to do the very thing you despise him doing?? Are you not asking God to respect the person you pray for while disrespecting those who are not lucky enough to have someone to pray for them? And if you believe that God treats all men alike, then why pray anyway? God has already done all that he can do; man must do the rest, mustn't he? If God has not done all that he can do, then is he really treating people fairly if he does more for person A than for person B simply because someone prayed for person A rather than person B? Person B would be being treated very unfairly.

    [ September 21, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Brother Chappie,

    Does God knock every sinner off of his horse with a blinding light as He did to the apostle Paul?

    Ken [​IMG]
     
  9. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Ironically, you used a lot of logic in this part, but not much Scripture.

    Actually, this question really does speak more to Calvinism. Why did God "choose" a higher percentage of Americans than he did Saudi Arabians this century? Why does God tend to choose children of the elect instead of children of the non-elect? HOW does God choose? If we examine the population analysis of those who become saved, it makes it very clear to me at least, that man indeed has a choice. It's our fault that we haven't shared the gospel with more people.
     
  10. All that you have demonstrated Pastor Larry is that you think that what you believe is the standard bearer for Calvinism. Unfortunately, you are not. It is not necessary to know what pastor Larry believes in order to call ones self a Calvinist.

    There is much dissention among Calvinist concerning Calvinism. I have posted the views of some others for you to see. All that you have demonstrated is that your argument is arrogant and without merit...

    Quite frankly, Pastor Larry; I am not interested your mentioning scriptures, anyone can mention scriptures. Take the time to post them and tell me how you relate them to your position and we have a conversation going.

    Anyway, I’ve been reading and studying the bible for years now, I have not found your position in them in all this time, what makes you think that I’ll magically find it because you mention them. Every time I post I mention scriptures..

    Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not your new phrase, yours is the first time I have ever seen it. And my first thoughts are, it is nothing but a quick way to try to misrepresent the facts. Can't deal with them, misrepresent them. That's my new phrase for today.

    Will not speak for Ray, he appears to be doing a fine job of speaking for himself.

    You want a scripture, yet you do not want that scripture to produce thoughts in the one reading it. No wonder you believe in salvational election. I do not believe in salvational predestination/election. You want scriptures, get your own!!!
    "The whosoever is clearly those who believe". Wow!! Now there's a clever bit of exegesis for ya. Had to get into the Greek to figure that one out did ya. "The whosoever is clearly those who believe". I thought that it was clearly those that were elected. But, alas; you are correct. Whosoever believeth, fancy that.

    Your perceived superiority is a trap that is gonna cost you reward in heaven, if you are in fact chosen..

    I do have an answer to your concerns, but it's a whole other thread to deal with. So, for the sake of brevity while you are being logical. Same question to you.

    Is God being fair to all those that were not chosen. Is your God even interested in being fair? Or is it all about his kingdom. In my bible, the scripture say that the word indeed has gone out to the whole world. Do entire nations fall into apostasy?

    The Canaanites did, yet you assume that God had no prophets among them. He did. When the nation as a whole had apostised to the point that none would return to God, that nation was fully destroyed. Do you see any nations today that are being fully destroyed? For Sodom and Gomorrah, God refused to destroy based on ten righteous.

    There are evangelists the world over, today. Russia under Stalin did not fully apostasise as evidenced by the rapid return to religion the instant that the walls came tumbling down.

    The only fallacy that I see here is your perceived notion that you understand how God works among the nations of the world. Also you magnify your lack of knowledge concerning "respecter of persons" when you fail to distinguish between a nation and a person. God choosing one nation over another manes him a respecter of nations. God choosing one "person" over another makes him a respecter of persons.. You gotta think Pastor Larry..

    Intervention, yes.. Unfair, we'll leave that up to God...
    From cover to cover, the bible is full of intercessory prayer. Yet you have brought up some interesting points. I shall study more, and pray concerning how God uses intercessory prayer.
     
  11. Ken:
    I am not sure that every sinner even has a horse. What's your point???
     
  12. Choice does not work that way..
    Btw, I received your PM. An excellant response to the post that was the object of your pm..
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The point, Brother Chappie, is that non-Calvinists say that God will not interfere with man's "free will", that to do so would make man a puppet or a robot.

    Now, if anyone thinks that after what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus he was going to run away from God, he probably also thinks that after the great fish vomited out Jonah that Jonah was still not going to go to Nineveh.

    Ken [​IMG]
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Brother Chappie,

    Would you care to try dealing with Deuteronomy 7:7-8 that I mentioned earlier?

    [​IMG] Ken [​IMG]
     
  15. Well Brother Ken:
    I am a non calvinist, yet I would not say that. As i believe that God is intimately involved in leading and guiding us in harmony with our free will. As i said, freewill does not exist absent outside persuasions. Even the Gospel is intended to act as a persuasion upon our free will.

    What i specifically have stated is that God will not act in a way in which his power totally overcomes our ability to resist. He will also make resisting very uncomfortable. but he does not overpower us. And he also will not allow Satan to do the same. He desires the same relationship with us today as he desired with Adam. He did not force his will upon Adam, neither does he today.

    Total depravity as originally expoused by Calvin is a reality. No man seeketh after God. Yet to deal with this depravity, God under the old covenant sent the prophets and performed many signs and wonders whose purpose was to overcome the depravity of man that man may receive and know truth.

    Christs life as our example is no more than a foolish jesture if no man had the ability to contemplate him and respond to him. With salvational election in place, man need only live, die and go to heaven or go to hell.

    On the road to Damascus, paul was not being prepared for heaven, he was being prepared for the ministry that God had chosen him to perform.

    Jona was not saved by preaching to the Nenivites, he was and is saved by the same criteria as you and I. God chooses individually for the ministry of his work here on the earth. He does not chose individually for salvation....
     
  16. Brother Chappie,

    Would you care to try dealing with Deuteronomy 7:7-8 that I mentioned earlier?
    [​IMG] Ken [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Brother Ken.
    Deut 7:6-7
    6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    I believe that you are asking me to deal with these passages as to how they can or cannot relate to salvational individual election.

    In order to establish context we must start at Deut 7:1
    When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

    As you can see, that which is discussed here is an earthly calling of a people to an earthly ministry. God tells the Israelites that in order to establish this ministry, seven nations that were greater and mightier than they were must be uprooted and destroyed. God is a respecter of nations; he is not a respecter of persons.

    He could have chosen the Canaanites as his chosen people, but concerning the work of the ministry of his kingdom, God chooses whomever he pleases. The potter and the clay are applicable here. Yet even here, God’s destruction of this people is not because it brings pleasure to him. God gains no satisfaction in the destruction of the wicked.

    In verse 2, God tells Israel that he will deliver these nations into their hands, and they should utterly destroy them, they are to make no covenant with them. They are to give neither their sons nor their daughters in marriage to them.

    The criteria (evil)that prompted their destruction is found in:
    Deut 7:5
    5But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

    In verse 6, God tells Israel: {Deut 7:6}
    For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    The nations that God expelled from the land were unholy nations, they present a clear and present danger to the holy calling that God had placed on the nation of Israel. It can also be surmised that they were perhaps an irresistible influence had God allowed them to stand. God will not allow Satan to become so powerful as to become an irresistible force within the lives of men. With every temptation, God will provide the means of escape.

    A chosen people, called to live holy, a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6) Above all people because through them God had chosen to evangelize the whole world.

    Verse 7: The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
    Verse 8:But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    God did not choose them because they were a great nation, but because he loved them, (A LOVE THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE NOR SUPERCEED HIS LOVE FOR OTHER PEOPLE) and because of a promise to Abraham that is delivered through their forefathers.

    Now if I can search the scriptures and find one person of Israel that was not saved, that in and of itself should confirm that this is not a salvational promise. Because that which God promises, he will deliver as evidenced through the following passages:

    9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

    Israel is not immune to the consequences of the last two verses.

    For clear and scriptural understanding, you have to place things within the context in which they were spoken. You cannot take passages that deal with earthly ministry and turn them into salvational election.

    Can you show me how you relate them to election???

    [ September 21, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Chappie,

    I wasn't on a horse when I was saved. The Lord took control of my life in Delanson, New York when I was about twelve years old. Is being on a horse a criterion of our Calvinist or Arminian brethren? Do donkey count also?
     
  18. What!!!!! What do you mean, no horse!!!! Can your donkey talk like Baalams?
     
  19. Still waiting for an evaluation of my intrepretation of Deut. 7:7:9
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Overall, a good effort, Chappie. [​IMG]

    1) Nations are composed of individuals. To be a respecter of a nation is to be a respecter of the individuals that comprise that nation.

    2) As the passage shows, God loved and chose the nation Israel because He loved and chose them. God chose and loved the elect salvifically because He chose and loved them salvifically.

    Ken
     
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