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Given these choices...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Oct 18, 2003.

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  1. Wesley Clark

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  2. George W. Bush

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  1. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    I suspect the Goring quote may be faked. It sounds like all those Hitler and Stalin and other bad guy "quotes" that are trotted out periodically to show one's oppenent how monsterous his opinion really is, most of them completely made up.

    Not that the Nazis didn't do those things. But I would be surprised if Goring actually talked about it.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong. :cool:

    Republicans have controlled the U.S. Senate for 17 years or 24% of the time since 1932:

    1947-48, 1953-54, 1981-86, 1995-2000, 2003

    Republicans have controlled the U.S. House of Representatives for 13 years or 18% of the time:

    1947-48, 1953-54, 1995-2003

    The Republicans have controlled the White House for 31 years or 43% of the time:

    1953-60, 1969-76, 1981-92, 2001-03

    Average these together and Republicans have controlled the federal government 28% of the time since 1932.

    Therefore, to be correct, you would have to state that the Democrats have been in power 72% of the time since 1932. :cool:
     
  3. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Drugs evidently were legal when you were a kid, Ken, but not recently. You are probably the only one who remembers when they were. And, yes, I have read Edgar Allen Poe. Evidently, you believe in Judge Roy Bean and the law west of the Pecos River. A lot of things happened before there was law. And we have all heard most of the history you referenced. These would be isolated incidences in comparison with the history of alcohol. Let's not major on the minors. The Libertarian analogy with Prohibition is still false because drug use destroys the user even if the drug use is inexpensive. The Libertarians don't care.

    As for your statistics about the GOP since 1932, you need to use your accounting powers to calculate when the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House. Then maybe you can concur with the generalization that the Democrats have ruled since 1932.

    Is this nitpicking day?

    You must be hard up for for points to discuss if you are trying to say that German mobilization under Hitler justifies the use of a nazi junkie and a suicide as a source of evidence or something to consider. And the Allies won the war, Ken, so leave the Libertarian Party before its roof of lofty ideas collapses on you.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    One thing that you Bush supporters are consistent about - ya'll never debate the facts. Ya'll just throw slurs around, talk smack like you're on some sports talk board, but ya'll never discuss substance. You're no better than the left-wingers that do the same thing.</font>[/QUOTE]When you say the "left wingers that do the same thing", are you referring to yourself?:

    Quotes from Ken H:

    "Yep, people got so used to being lied to by Bill Clinton about Monica Lewinsky that being lied to by George W. Bush about WMDs in Iraq(resulting in hundreds of U.S. deaths and injuries and thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths - and is still ongoing) to help the neo-cons in their thirst for world-wide power seems minor to some people who still wish to vote for President Bush. "

    "Do you right-wingers ever think anyone can ask an honest question? Sheesh! "

    "So now you claim not non-Bush supporters are actually supporting the resistance in Iraq.

    Is there no bottom as to how low Bush supporters will go to defend President Bush's failures? "

    "Bush told his senior aides Tuesday that he "didn't want to see any stories" quoting unnamed administration officials in the media anymore, and that if he did, there would be consequences, said a senior administration official who asked that his name not be used.


    -- Philadelphia Inquirer, [October 16, 2003}

    Cartoon - www.ucomics.com/anntelnaes/2003/10/10 "

    And then, there are the liberals in the media you quote who make fun of Bush and conservatives in general:

    "Why does the right seem so much stupider than the left? Maybe it's just because I pay closer attention to the right, and know this movement so much better, but it’s forever falling for political gimmicks. By comparison, the left seems generally more serious about politics and not as easily sidetracked by battles over symbols of nothing. "


    "At the White House, they must laugh and laugh at the American right. There's a name for these people – suckers – and Barnum government is greatly appreciative of their role."

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000827;p=1#000000

    I imagine that according to your definition of an anti-Semite - anyone who doesn't give carte blanche to anything Israel wants or does - then, yes, Pat Buchanan is an anti-Semite. [/QUOTE]

    No. An anti-semite is someone who makes up falsehoods about the Jewish people and the nation of Israel in order to defame them or incite more violence against them. I don't agree with everything Israel does and with everything the Jews believe. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a Christian. I also don't agree with the ADL that anything that cast the Jews in a bad light is anti-semitic. But, when one makes up falsehoods about the Jews or makes unfair generalizations based on anti-semitic Muslim hate propaganda when the nation of Israel is among the most humane countries in the world when it comes to their policies while the Muslims routinely torture and murder those who disagree with their regimes and send their children into Jewish centers to blow themselves up and kill innocent civilians, that is anti-semitic.

    And so am I [/QUOTE]

    Based on what I have read from you, I must agree with you here. I will certainly pray for you though that God will change your heart.

    and just about everyone in the world [/QUOTE]

    Although I would agree that there are a lot of anti-semitic bigots in the world, I doubt there are quite as many as you think there are.

    except for few millinon of you hardline premillennialists.[/QUOTE]

    I am not a premillennialist.

    Yes, I am serious.[/QUOTE]

    I was afraid of that.

    Unless Mr. Arafat says something I agree with that makes a point that I think needs making I don't plan on quoting him. He and his ilk are just as much of extremists on one side as you and your ilk are on the other side. [/QUOTE]

    Raising the level of conversation, I see.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Okay, then. Based on your definition, offer up your evidence that Pat Buchanan is an anti-Semite. Based on your evidence, offer your evidence that I am an anti-Semite. :cool:
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) Especially when you apparently don't have much of a grasp of history.

    2) Huh? :confused:

    3) I am not currently a member of any political party. In the past I have supported the Democrat Party, the Libertarian Party, the Republican Party, and the Constitution Party.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    If you would like to know the truth about Israel pre-1948 to the present day, I would recommend Alan Dershowitz's (Not necessarily a conservative or a premiller) "The Case For Israel". I am sure you can find it at Barnes and Noble or your local library.

    When you find out that Israel is not the monster that you attempted to portray it as in another thread, I think you will have some understanding:

    "quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
    whereas the Jews have time and time again proven themselves to be peace-loving democracies
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You need to read up on the pre-1948 history of Palestine under the British. There were Jewish terrorists every bit as heinous as the Muslim terrorists of today.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=001227;p=1

    Read the truth and see if you still feel the same.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    That's...that's it?! Based on that you are calling me an anti-Semite? Sheesh! :rolleyes:

    And I still don't see any proof about Pat Buchanan.

    But evidently it is sufficient to say, "I think Israel is wrong about..." or "I think Israel shouldn't..." for you to call someone an anti-Semite. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Ken, you called yourself an anti-semite. I merely agreed with you. Go back and read the post. ;)

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    In other words, you are not willing to look at the evidence provided by a liberal law prof. from Harvard who has taken an active role in peace negotiations between the Palestinians and the Jews if it doesn't say what you want it to say? It figures. Typical liberal closed-mindedness.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    (assertion made that Ken said he was an anti-semite)

    Well, no he didn't. He said by your measure, he is. But he clearly doesn't agree with your measure.

    With regard to Buchanan, I agree with William Buckley, and conclude that it is impossible to defend him against the charge that he is an antisemite.

    In all fairness, it may merely be that he is highly anti-Zionist, which is not necessarily the same thing as anti-semetic.

    He doesn't seem to be fond of many Jews, and few of them seem to like him very much.
     
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That's...that's it?! Based on that you are calling me an anti-Semite? Sheesh! :rolleyes:

    And I still don't see any proof about Pat Buchanan.

    But evidently it is sufficient to say, "I think Israel is wrong about..." or "I think Israel shouldn't..." for you to call someone an anti-Semite. :rolleyes:
    </font>[/QUOTE]As to Pat Buchanan (and believe me, it wasn't hard to find a link to prove this):

    http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm#fulani

    http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/buchanan.html

    http://www.adl.org/special_reports/buchanan_own_words/buchanan_intro.asp?&MSHiC=1252&L=10&W=pat+buchanan+BUCHANANS+&Pre=%3CFONT+STYLE%3D%22color%3A+%23000000%3B+background%2Dcolor% 3A+%23FFFF00%22%3E&Post=%3C%2FFONT%3E

    [ October 19, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Joseph_Botwinick ]
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL Report, 1994)

    Pretty much what I thought. Defend the Christian faith, claim that it is superior to Judaism, and one is called anti-Semitic.

    During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and
    its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90)


    Pretty much what I thought. Oppose anything that Israel wants, put the interests of America first, and one is called anti-Semitic.
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    "Holocaust Revisionism
    Perhaps the single most extreme and scary thing Buchanan has done is to question whether the Holocaust was really that bad. In the course of defending Demanjuk, he argued that charges of complicity in mass murder using Treblinka's gas chambers were false -- because the gas chambers didn't really work.

    In his March 17, 1990 column, he wrote that diesel engines, the exhaust from which was used in the Treblinka gas chambers, "do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody. ... Demanjuk's weapon of mass murder cannot kill."

    His evidence was a 1988 accident where a train stalled in a tunnel, with the engine running for a few minutes. No one died. Of course, the train operator was not trying to kill anyone. Apparently, properly tuned diesels do not produce much carbon monoxide, but they can be (and were) tweaked to produce deadlier exhaust. Many people actually think that in the gas chambers, the exhaust was used to suffocate, not poison. In a crowded, sealed chamber this would happen much more quickly.

    As Muravchik points out in the Commentary article, "diesel exhaust fumes were used not only at Treblinka but also at Chelmno, Sobibor, and Belzec, and were moreover employed extensively by the Nazi killing squads inside the USSR." Denying that diesel exhaust can kill means that much of the generally accepted history of the Holocaust must be false.

    Buchanan has refused to discuss his statements on the record, but told reporter Jacob Weisberg of a "bolder debunking claim (concerning the gas chambers) than he is willing to endorse in print." When Weisberg asked him where he got the anecdote about the stalled train, he would say only "Somebody gave it to me." All evidence points to Buchanan getting this from Holocaust Revisionist groups. Treblinka is often singled out by these extremists, because the gas chamber was destroyed, and most witnesses murdered, before Allied troops arrived at the end of the war.

    A well-researched article by Jamie McCarthy persuasively identifies Buchanan's source as the July 1988 issue of the German American Information and Education Association, a revisionist group.That issue goes on to say "the German people were 'holocausted' after WW II, especially by the Bolsheviks, originally a Jewish/Zionist movement."

    In his Ivan the Terrible column, Buchanan also tried to explain away death camp eyewitnesses by saying "Since the war, 1,600 medical papers have been written on 'The Psychological and Medical Effects of the Concentration Camps on Holocaust Survivors.' This so-called 'Holocaust Survivor syndrome involves 'group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics.' "

    To this day - the last week of February 1996 to be exact - Buchanan still defends his Demanjuk columns as "the best journalism I ever did."

    And he contests several other generally accepted aspects of German history. (He is himself entirely German, on his mother's side, and half Irish on his father's.) Buchanan argued that the British started the terror-bombing in WWII (causing Germans to retaliate). He wrote Reagan's infamous description of the German soldiers buried in Bitburg, Germany (including SS members) as "victims of the war". He wrote a column in 1990 publicizing "Other Losses", a book alleging that one million German POWs died in American camps at the end of WW2, due to General Eisenhower's supposedly fanatical hatred of Germans. He argued Britain started WWI and pulled us into a fight with Germany through "lying British propaganda."

    And during the reunification of Germany in 1989, many neighboring countries pressured Germany to accept its postwar borders and give up claims to land it lost at the end of WW2. Buchanan applauded Helmut Kohl as a "patriot" for his "reluctance to sign away all rights to the lost German territories."

    -- Back to the top -- Sources

    http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm#fulani
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    "Defender of Nazis
    Buchanan is the most prominent defender of accused Nazis in America. The most famous case is that of John Demanjuk, who was accused of being an infamous death camp guard named Ivan the Terrible. Buchanan proclaimed his innocence for years, against ample criticism, and felt vindicated when an Israeli court declared there was not enough evidence to convict Demanjuk of being Ivan.

    Buchanan continues to declare that Demanjuk has been proved "innocent". Actually, a key piece of evidence (from German documents) that exonerated him as Ivan showed Demanjuk to be a willing guard at Sobibor, another extermination camp where 250,000 died. Even the National Review, while generally defending Demanjuk and Buchanan's support for him, concedes that "Demanjuk was probably guilty of being a lesser accomplice in the Nazi machinery of genocide. That is a fair summary of the Israeli court's findings."

    More to the point, Demanjuk is only one of several accused Nazis Buchanan has defended in one way or another. These include Karl Linnas (Buchanan personally appealed to Ed Meese, then Attorney General, to block his deportation to the Soviet Union); Klaus Barbie (Buchanan did not oppose his trial, but argued the US should not have apologized to France for sheltering Barbie after WWII); Arthur Rudolph, a rocket scientist involved in slave labor and severe punishments at a German rocket factory (Buchanan argued his confession was a "lie" while acknowledging he was a "nominal member of the Nazi party and of the SA until 1934"); and Frank Walus (of all the accused, the one most likely innocent.)

    One of the most striking examples is Kurt Waldheim, the disgraced former UN leader. Buchanan repeatedly attacked him during his tenure, but once his Nazi past came out, Pat complained that "the ostracism of President Waldheim [has] an aspect of moral bullying and the singular stench of selective indignation." He also rationalized that "like others in Hitler's army, Lt. Waldheim looked the other way."

    In each of these cases, Buchanan found a factual reason to defend the accused, an appeal to justice. But put together, it is striking how often he rushes to the defense of accused Nazis. He has also attacked the US Justice Department's Office of Special Investigation (which pursues war criminals) more generally:
    "You've got a great atrocity that occurred 35, 45 years ago.... Why... put millions of dollars [into] investigating that?"

    -- Back to the top -- Sources

    http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm#nazis
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    "Anti-Semitic Statements
    Buchanan knows his words, and even his most outrageous statements always fall just short of blatantly going over the line. But one group always seems to bother him -- Jews.
    Anti-Semitism isn't cut or dried: Lots of Americans grew up hearing anti-Jewish slurs, and many keep some of that with them. William Safire (Buchanan's colleague on the Nixon speechwriting team) put it this way: Buchanan is an extremist whose anti-Semitism would rank at level four or five -- on a scale that has Adolf Hitler at 10 and Black Muslim leader Rev. Louis Farrakhan as a seven.

    When he attacks the Supreme Court, he always names "Ruth (pause) Bader (pause) Ginsburg", though she is the newest and least influential member. When he attacks Wall Street investment firms, he always names Goldman Sachs, the only major Jewish-run firm in a WASP dominated industry.

    He described Congress as "Israeli-occupied territory", and opposed the Gulf War by saying only "the Israeli Defense Ministry and its amen corner in the United States" wanted to fight Saddam Hussein. (Which was crazy, apart from any Jewish angle. Desert Storm was one of the most popular wars in U.S. history.)

    And Brock Meeks, reporter for Hotwired, broke the story that Buchanan included in his official World Wide Web page an article claiming that Hillary Clinton is a spy for Israel. After ABC News ran the story, the Buchanan campaign pulled the article off their site. You can see the article, exactly as it appeared on Pat's web site, by clicking here.

    Buchanan also seems to relish Catholic vs. Jewish antagonism, one part of pre-Vatican II Catholicism that most Catholics don't miss. During the controversy over a proposed Carmelite convent at Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote some of his most frightening words:

    "If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him, 'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic...it's deep within them,' when he declares this 'is not a fight between Catholics and Jews,' he speaks for himself. Be not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests ready to assume role of defender of the faith."

    Appeasement means trying to stall an attacker by making concessions -- what attacks were Catholic groups "appeasing"? What did Pat think the faith should be defended against? The only issue was that Jewish groups thought it disrespectful to build a convent right next to a major Holocaust death camp. The man clearly has a king-sized chip on his shoulder.

    Then, of course, there is Buchanan's defense of Nazis, his praise for Hitler,, and his Holocaust revisionism.

    It isn't a statement here or there that reveals Buchanan's fixation with Jews -- it's the consistent theme of it that appears in his statements over the years. Even William F. Buckley reluctantly concluded that Buchanan was an anti-Semite after carefully reviewing dozens of his statements about Jews in a very long National Review article. And John Muravchik, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, concluded a similar review in Commentary Magazine by saying that "Taken cumulatively, Buchanan's rhetoric about Jews pretty clearly betrays an underlying sense of grievance or irritation." -- Back to the top -- Sources

    http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm#antisemitism
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    "ON JEWS:

    Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory."
    (St. Louis Post Dispatch, 10/20/90)

    During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating
    the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and
    its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90)

    In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and
    genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's
    success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an
    intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness
    masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood
    in his path." (The Guardian, 1/14/92)

    Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the
    historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel
    exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide
    to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in
    the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter
    and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist
    concoction.

    Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of
    Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was
    "running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87)

    Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests
    -- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried.
    At a White House meeting, Buchanan reportedly reminded Jewish leaders that
    they were "Americans first" -- and repeatedly scrawled the phrase
    "Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews" in his notebook. Buchanan was
    credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at
    Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration
    camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96)

    After Cardinal O'Connor criticized anti-Semitism during the
    controversy over construction of a convent near Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote:
    "If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate
    as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of
    New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him
    'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic'...he speaks for himself. Be
    not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests
    ready to assume the role of defender of the faith." (New Republic,
    10/22/90)

    The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article
    blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli
    intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary
    Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its
    existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic
    Agency, 2/21/96.)

    In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan
    declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our
    religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL
    Report, 1994)

    http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/buchanan.html
     
  20. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    Personally I don't know for a fact that Patrick Buchanan is a racist (although I first posted this before I read the stunning evidence posted by Joseph B. above), but would automatically suspect someone of being a racist if he is a contributor to the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens newsletter and had been a contributor to The Spotlight, the tabloid of the unabashedly anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby. "By their fruits..."
     
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