God can only save those who believe

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

His will is simply perfect. It does not fail!!!

 

There is no difference between saying "I would not do it" and "I am not willing to do it".

But I agree that that those who believe will be saved.

 

I'm sorry, I simply disagree. No way these two lines are saying the same thing.

 

Ok. You're entitled to your opinion. As am I.

God Bless.

 

Actually Outsider, no there isn't

If God 'would' that means it is His desire for something. He is willing for it to be, yet that does not negate the fact He knows what will transpire.

When God states there are two options, do you believe that there is actaully two options God is giving or do you hold that God is making up the other.
If there is truly two options then one is His decreetive will and the other His permissive will. However the permissive will does not supercede His decreetive will for it is by the decreetive will all things continue to a final point. G

God didn't determine to create man with the sole intent to send more than half into Hell. If He did He would take pleasure, no make that GREAT pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. But scripture tells us that He takes NO pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. Why not? Because God 'would' that ALL MEN repent and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

BTW it is that passage that was being debated (1 Tim) and not the passage in Peter: Here is the KJV version:

ESV:

NASB:

The word here for 'will' in the KJV is:
Thelo -
1) to will, have in mind, intend
.........a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
.........b) to desire, to wish
.........c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
.........d) to take delight in, have pleasure

This word is translated in these differing forms:
AV — will/would 159, - will/would have 16, - desire 13, - desirous 3, - list 3, - to will 2, - misc 4

 

Amen sister. God bless you and your family.

 

I'll be back later tonight to put in my nickle in the thread, if that is ok with you all

 

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(NKJ)

 

Is it possible that 1 Tim 2:4 reference to "all people" has the Gentiles in mind as well as the Jews?

Here's why:

Paul goes on to say, "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (v.7).

 

Allan,

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is saying "All men" as in people of all nations. It is not limited to a nation, race, sex or birth right. This is for all people of all nations.

No it doesn't. His will is stated clearly in John 6:39-40. If a lost sinner would believe, God will save them by His grace.

I do see what you are saying, as well as Amy G. My argument is simply God's will. I say it does not and cannot fail. And it doesn't!
Christ died for the sins of the world. It was God's desire for that to happen and it happened.

It is also God's will for us to have everlasting life. The doors are open for all those who believe. That is His will. Is it going to fail? If one can fail then what does that mean? I refuse to accept the notion that His will or anything else can fail.

 

makes God sound pretty weak with no control over His creation.

 

Weak? Will God save those who DON'T believe? That is heresy.

 

I would agree and therefore it would still be the same, except the scope has broadened beyond the Jews. The reference of all in the context is refering to all mankind which is inclusive of the Gentile people along with the Jewish people, but not exclusively the Gentiles.

We know that God chose the Jewish people to be His people but not all the Jews were saved. Yet He reached out to them all and many rejected, He called them all and many refused.

This paralleled in the passages of Mat :

and Rom 10:21

So to broaden the scope beyond the Jews, means that the same desire He had for the Jews is now fixated toward the Gentiles as a whole (just as it was for the Jews as whole) we can both conclude and see scripturally that though He reaches out to all not all will receive Him, and though He calls to the Gentiles not all will come.

 

Exactly!! It is inclusive of 'all people' and not exclusive. Thus God desires for 'all men' to repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

I love what Spurgeon says (and he is a staunch 5 point Cal who holds to the Cal view of Election) but listen to what He says about this passage:
Salvation by Knowing the Truth
Here is a quote from it:

No question. However, do you believe that God does not desire to save all His creation (relating to man)? I ask this because if He does not then does the scripture state He will that all men repent? Or that the Gospel be preached to all? Or that Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the sins of the whole world?

Why does God NOT take pleasure in the death of the wicked, if it is His will that they depart from Him into everlasting damnation? Because He does not desire or more accurately 'wish' them to be there, Yet He has decreed that all who will not believe, will be damned for rejecting the truth (2 Thes 2:10-12) or another way to say it - to trade the truth for a lie (Rom 1: 18- ). God has given man to man the 'Resposiblity of will'.

Oh, I do understand, and don't get me wrong. However there is more than one will of God at work relating to God and His creation.

No one has said His will has failed. If it was not for His will no one would be saved. It was His permissive will that allows for choice regarding salvation, but it is His decreetive will that establishes what is and is to be. But with regard to the passage in 1 Tim 2 the better understanding of the word 'will' would be 'wish' or 'desires'

 

Allan,

I'm interested in meaning of "all people" in 1 Tim 2:4, and it seems like you're in agreement with me.

Jews and Gentiles.

Everyone within the Jewish and Gentile community is a different debate.

 

On that I am.

And on the other.. we both know I'm not :laugh:

 

Well, you know, that's a tough one.

We both know the issues involve here.

For example, the context of John 12:32 is the same as this one.

 

Agreed on both counts.

There is just a difference in our views of the inclusiveness or exclusiveness in relation to the phrase 'all men'.

 

Well, if the context of John 12:32 includes v. 22, where we have the Greeks seeking Jesus, then "all" must reference all types of people.

For example, when we come to the Letters, there's always an interplay between Jews and Gentiles (Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:22-24).

Then when we come to Rev we read:

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice that "people for God" refers to different ethnic nationalities--types of people.