God does not love all mankind

glfredrick · Feb 10, 2012

Amy.G said: ↑

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying. Did I take "world" out of context in John 3:16?
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Not necesarily, but the word is "world" (kosmos in the Greek) not "sinner." When we start substituting words that the inspired writers COULD have used, then we may also start making the text say something that it doesn't really say -- and that because we prefer for it to say that, if it said that it might fit better with our doctrines, etc.

Amy.G · Feb 10, 2012

glfredrick said: ↑

Not necesarily, but the word is "world" (kosmos in the Greek) not "sinner." When we start substituting words that the inspired writers COULD have used, then we may also start making the text say something that it doesn't really say -- and that because we prefer for it to say that, if it said that it might fit better with our doctrines, etc.
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Ok. I was just trying to prove my point about world usually meaning sinful mankind. It fits better with my doctrine. :tongue3:

MB · Feb 10, 2012

kyredneck said: ↑

Yea, but take it a step further Willis:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

You are a synergist, c'mon, fess up, that's what you are.

Ultimately, what you all (free willers) say is that YOU (THE BIG "I") put yourselves in Christ, not God. It all boils down to YOUR (THE BIG "I") choice, not God's.
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This isn't true at all. Salvation is about meeting the requirements laid out in scripture.
Paul told the Jailer;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Here you are denying what the scripture says and reviling all those who follow these simple instructions. Who are you to tell us this isn't true. Are you placing yourself in the Lords shoes.

Your false charge of the (big I) is going to bite you one day.
MB

Andy_S · Feb 10, 2012

This is the kind of teaching I find most challenging of all.

Amy.G · Feb 10, 2012

Andy_S said: ↑

This is the kind of teaching I find most challenging of all.
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Some things will challenge us the rest of our lives. We can only know what God wants us to know. The rest He'll reveal in eternity (maybe ).

That's why we live by faith.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

convicted1 said: ↑

Well, God so loved the world........

kosmos is the word used for the word "world".

Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world(John 1:29).

kosmos used again.

God has no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous, but in His righteousness, they must receive their reward if they die in their sins.
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The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek transulation in the following scriptures means "used of believers only". 8) a)a) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33,12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. Not all mankind!

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

Winman said: ↑

Spurgeon, like many Calvinists must have been unfamiliar with Jeremiah chapter 18, which Paul referred to in Romans 9:

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

God was speaking of nations when he spoke of Jacob and Esau, and it is true that he loved Jacob and hated Esau, but there is nothing unconditional or unjust about it. God says in Jeremiah 18 (which Paul is referring to) that if he has spoken concerning a nation to pluck it up and destroy it, if that nation turns from it's evil, God will turn from the evil that he thought to do unto them. Likewise, God said that if he had spoken to build and plant a nation, if that nation do evil and not obey his voice, he would repent of the good that he said he would benefit them.

So, there is nothing unconditional in this, and there is nothing unjust in this, God will bless a nation that repents from their evil and does good, and God will punish a nation that turns from him and does evil.

Calvinists err because they do not know (or choose to ignore) OT scripture well.
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The nation of Israel is a type of God's elect. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28.

webdog · Feb 10, 2012

Forest said: ↑

The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek transulation in the following scriptures means "used of believers only". 8) a)a) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33,12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. Not all mankind!
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Wrong, already addressed. Context is the authority, not Thayer. I challenge you to show John's useage of "whole world" being anything other than all sinful mankind.

quantumfaith · Feb 10, 2012

I wonder how long the "debate" as to the premise of the OP has gone on? Or how long will it continue?

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

quantumfaith said: ↑

And being a good "non-determinist" I must ask given any such set of circumstances in life, how does one KNOW that they are a result of God's chastening actions? For truly, if honest, we ALL deserve to STAY under such chastening daily. Rather, our heart should be one to consistently ask in "dire" circumstance (even in wonderful circumstances), God please allow me and inspire me to learn more of how to live properly for YOU.
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The natural man will not and cannot seek to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.

webdog · Feb 10, 2012

Forest said: ↑

The natural man will not and cannot seek to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.
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Extremely poor paraphrase. The natural man cannot understand (discern) the deeper things of God. Night and day difference in meaning and scope.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

psalms109:31 said: ↑

I will make it simple.

Jesus He loved the world He hated. Yet He put His Son on the cross for the world He hated that whosoever believes in Him will not be condemned but will have eternal life.

So that person in the deepest part of Africa will not be saved, because the messenger of God who He sent to the ends of the earth, didn't think he was important enough to save his life.

1 Thessalonians 2
Paul’s Ministry in Thessalonica
1 You know, brothers and sisters, that our visit to you was not without results. 2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition. 3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4 On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. 5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. 7 Instead, we were like young children[Some manuscripts were gentle] among you.

Just as a nursing mother cares for her children, 8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
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All scripture must harmonise with each other before you are understanding the truth. Salvation means "a deliverance". In the salvation scriptures we must determine what we are being delivered from. If its from this present evil world then it is eternal salvation, but if we are being delivered from other things besides this world then it would be a timely salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world. There is a deliverance (salvation) in coming unto a knowledge of the truth, such as in Romans 10, Eph 1:17-18, Eph 4:13-14, Phil 3:8-9, Col 1:9-13, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 1:2-4.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

12strings said: ↑

I think there are two opposite errors here:

ERROR 1: "God does not hate anyone." ie..."God loves the sinner and hates the sin." This statement is nowhere in the bible! It comes from pagan thought. There are clearly places in the bible where God Hates:

-Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

ERROR 2: "God does not love all people."
We should also note that God also loves those he hates:
-John 3:16 - (no need to quote that one) [if we need to discuss if "the world" includes unbelievers, we can, but hopefully the following 2 verses will make that discussion unnecessary)
-2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (Some kind of care, which could be defined as "love" is obviously shown here.)
-Matt. 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
-->(God loves his enemies, and expresses this by giving them rain and sun...sometimes called common grace)

Now...He Does NOT Love everyone the same way. He does not love those who have rejected him in the same way he loves those who have received him.
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We are all born into this world as natural beings without any righteousness until God quickens his elect to a spiritual life. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot seek after things that are of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14. 2 Pet 3:9, To keep it in context, lets go bace to 2 Pet 1:1 and see who Peter is talking to, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Verse 3:9 are people who are born of the Spirit and have faith. Peter is warning them that when they commit a sin and don't repent of it, they will perish (lose their fellowship with God), not lose their eternal salvation. Peter is even including himself in this warning by using the word "us-ward". The inspired scriptures are not written to those that are not his children, but are written to his children to instruct them as how to live their lives while they sojourn here in this world. God says those that have not the Spirit are none of his, Rom 8:9.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

Skandelon said: ↑

I've spoken to a Jewish man who speaks original Aramaic about this passage and he laughed at how Calvinists interpret it. He said that those who understand the original language and the usage of the word "hate: in context with his elective choice would NEVER come to this conclusion. I agree with him for these reasons:

1. Paul begins the chapter expresses extraordinary love for his fellow countrymen who are being hardened in their rebellion, so unless you believe that Paul, writing under inspiration of the Spirit, is more loving than the God who is inspiring him then you can't come to that conclusion.

2. In the original language there are other examples of love/hate being representative of choosing one over another. i.e."...you must hate your mother and father..." Which clearly means you choose God OVER even your own parents, just as Jacob, and his posterity, were chosen OVER Esau, and his posterity, for the noble purpose of bringing redemption.

3. Even Paul refers to them being 'nations' in her womb prior to drawing this comparison, so it is not a stretch to understand his point from a corporate standpoint of using one nation for noble purposes and the other for common use, rather than the idea that God irresistibly saving one and not the other.
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You would be wise to stick to the scriptures proving themselves instead of taking stock in "a Jewish man who speaks Aramaic".

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

Skandelon said: ↑

The choice of Jacob over Esau is being compared to God's perceived choice to save one individual (elect) over another (reprobate).

But may I suggest for consideration that the choice is more likely compared to God's choice of Paul over Gamaliel (his Rabbi - or some other random unknown Pharisee of that day). Paul was chosen for the noble purpose of apostleship and bringing the message of divine redemption to the world (not unlike the purpose of God's choice of Israel over other nations, because we know individuals of other nations were saved, but they weren't chosen for the noble purpose of bringing redemption to rest of the world as was Israel).

Why was Paul, a Jew, chosen over Gamaliel, another Jew of 'higher esteem,' for this noble purpose? Why was Gamaliel left for 'common use?' Was Paul more righteous or deserving? NO. He was chosen so that God's purpose in electing Israel would be fulfilled and the message of redemption would come through Israel.

And do we know Gamaliel was lost? Could he have been provoked by envy and saved (Rm 11:14)? Possibly. But that doesn't change the fact that Paul was chosen for noble purposes while other Pharisees were left in their blind and hardened condition, left protesting, "Why has God made me like this?"
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Paul's mission was to "feed the sheep" (God's children) and not to eternally save anyone, Christ took care of eternally saving those that God gave him on the cross, John 6:37-40.

Iconoclast · Feb 10, 2012

Here is an historic view
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/keach/electionofparticularpersons.htm

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

webdog said: ↑

I believe I already addressed that by comparing Bible to Bible (Matt. 10:37, Luke 14:26)
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Rom 9:13, God is making this point to show that his election might stand. Matt and Luke have no connection to determining his elect.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

Skandelon said: ↑

Some here need to understand there has been some disagreement on this particular question within the Reformed tradition:

[In his book,] "The Sovereignty of God," by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world...") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"

[In contrast,] the mainstream of Reformed theologians have always affirmed the love of God for all sinners. John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish."

Calvin continues to explain the biblical balance that both the gospel invitation and "the world" that God loves are by no means limited to the elect alone. He also recognized that God's electing, saving love is uniquely bestowed on His chosen ones.

Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity. -(ref from John MacArthur)
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Scripture will prove scripture without refering to other men's writtings. All scriptures must harmonise with each other.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

convicted1 said: ↑

The ones who come to God, knowing that without Him, they'd die eternaly lost. These are the ones He loves. No one coming to the Father, will be cast aside, but He will love them and save them.
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The natural man that does not have the Spirit of God will not and cannot serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.

Forest · Feb 10, 2012

preacher4truth said: ↑

Amen. In context those coming to Him are drawn, and are the ones that the Father gave to the Son.
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God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, and gave those that he choose to Christ to die for their sins, not for the sins of all mankind, John 637-41. The natural man will not seek to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.

God does not love all mankind

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