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God hates the sin and the sinner!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brother Shane, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    DHK, God most certainly has emotions! It's just that His are not out of control...
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Scripture says that God is love. It also says that His immutable--unchangeable--the same: yesterday, today, and forever. How do you reconcile these verses and say that God is a God of love one day and a God of wrath the next. He is not. He is a God of love, justice, holiness, mercy, goodness, etc.
    The adjective wrath describes his justice or judgment.
    Would in not be just as viable to read the verse: "and the judgment of God abideth on him."
    Yet to make it more emphatic for man's sake the Holy Spirit inspired John to use the word "wrath." But God is not an angry God with a baseball bat ready to club into submission those who reject his Son as Saviour. He is a God of love.

    How is it that most of us have no problem expaining this verse to our children and new believers:

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
    --We tell them that the first thing to note that it doesn't mean is the physical shape of God, for God is a spirit. Rather it means in the moral likeness of God--the ability to reason, to think, to be different from the animal kingdom, to have a spirit that can communicate with God, to develop attributes like God: holiness, love, justice, etc. But in no way were we made in the likeness of God in a physical sense. That part of Genesis we understand perfectly well.

    But now, all of a sudden we want to picture God in a physical sense, as a man, having physical and human attributes. Why the sudden change in our thinking about God? God is spirit. He doesn't have a body like we do. He doesn't have those emotions that a body (the function of the brain) produces such as we do. The attributes of God are not the result of a body. But emotions are.
    DHK
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't think that this can be demonstrated from Scripture, though you may be able to list emotional words that seem to describe God.

    Emotions change; Attributes don't
    Emotions fluctuate; God is immutable--unchangealbe.
    Emotions are a result of our earthly body; Attributes are the eternal characteristics of God (ominpresence, omnipotence, omniscience, love, justice, holiness, etc.)

    Emotions described in the Bible are simply anthropormorphic expressions to help us understand more of what God is like. In the Old Testament many times it tells us that God "repented." Did he? Or was that an expression to help us understand him more?
    DHK
     
  4. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    but DHK, what makes you think that emotions are strictly physical?

    ANd the Bible speaks of God never changing in that His character never changes. This doesn't mean that His actions or methods might not change from person to person, or that even His emotion might change.

    God ALWAYS hates sin, God ALWAYS has wrath towards sinfulness, God ALWAYS loves us. That doesn't mean these aren't real emotions.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I hear you DHK, what then is the "wrath of God" in the passage I quoted?

    Immutability means that the attributes of God's personality do not change. Two of those essential attributes are love and holiness. Out of these attributes come the expression (yes emotion and/or sensibilty) of the persona of God.

    He will be love as well as holy throughout eternity.

    Jesus Christ the Word incarnate, and the express image of the very essence of God certainly expressed His emotions on many occassions, for instance when He was angered and drove the money changers from the temple.

    Will those emotions be present when He comes in all His glory to judge the world?

    The Spirit can be grieved:
    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    If God has not emotion then how can we obey the Scripture above?

    Another :
    Hebrews 3
    7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
    8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
    10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

    Or what is it that John the Baptist warned the pharisees to flee from.

    What does the Book of Revelation speak of?

    Revelation 6
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Yes I understand that the love of God, grace and faith are to be primarily preached as the Spirit reproves of sin because it's the "good news".

    But if the "good news" is refused then the wrath of God and His judgment is all that's left and we must also warn of that fearful outcome.

    Acts 24 24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
    25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

    HankD
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    --As God is a triune God, we are tri-partite beings: body, soul and spirit. The soul is the seat of our affections, the place of our reasoning, our intellect, etc. The spirit is that which we are able to communicate with God.

    I have been reading recently about the barbaric tortures of the Catholic Inquisitions, how they used horrendous means of torture for their "heretics," most often Bible-believing Christians. These people would suffer in agony--agony of the flesh, agony of the soul; but they would be rejoicing in the Spirit that soon they would see the Lord--Christ their Saviour.
    Their spirit wasn't suffering. It was their body and soul. The soul is equivalent to the mind, and often is expressed in the Bible as the heart.

    Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

    --That same heart today would be expressed as the brain. When you die, you leave your brains behind. (A few of us do that in the morning. :D )
    Attributes speak to character which never changes. His methods do change throughout various dispensations; but again his character doesn't. Emotions change; God does not. His character and nature never change. When a persons emotions change so do the characteristics about him. God is not like that. He does not change.
    1. God hates sin. That is true.
    2. God always has wrath towards sinfulness. That is false. If that was true, then Satan would have been destroyed the day that he fell, and there never would have been a "temptation" or a "tempter" in the garden of Eden. The truth is that God is longsuffering and merciful. He does not judge you as soon as you sin. If he did we would all be in hell this very minute. Thus "He does not always have wrath."
    When one understands wrath in the sense of his attribute of justice (instead of an emotion of wrath), then we understand the character of God better. He is always a just God.

    Abraham said: "Shall not the God of all the earth do right?" speaking of his justice, and of the judgment (not wrath) about to be poured out on Sodom and Gomorrah.
    In our view it is wrath. That is how we look at it. Looking at it from God's point of view, it is his justice being meted out. He says things in ways that make it easier for us to understand.

    3. "God always loves me." That is true, but it doesn't put love in the category of an emotion. When God demonstrated his love toward you, he sent Christ to die for your sin. The love was in pain. The emotions that he bore were the most cruel and painful that could ever be imagined. That was love. Too many people have lust and love mixed up. They are too involved in the carnality of love to understand what divine love really is. Love is self-sacrifice. It is the giving of one's self for another. And this one does joyfully. When Christ died He didn't look down from the cross and have all this wishy-washy; ooey-gooey, lovey-dovey, emotional feelings for those about him, or for those of the world. His love was not an emotion. His emotion (as a man), at that time, was great intense pain. He did show great concern for his earthly mother during those moments of agony, that she would be cared for. But the human emotions that he endured were those of agony. He gives us a glimpse how very much alone he felt: "Why hast thou forsaken me?"
    God's love for us is not emotional.
    DHK
     
  7. SavedbyHISGrace

    SavedbyHISGrace New Member

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    Do you love the lost? Do you wish to see them saved from eternal punishment, and find a new life in Jesus? Or, do you suppose that you are "better" than they are, bearing in mind that we are all still sinners, even if we are saved? What of, "For God SO LOVED the world..."?

    You are in great need of the love of the Holy Spirit in your heart. I thank God that He is NOT like you(Moderators addition---"or any of us" ), as NONE of us will ever make it to heaven!

    ***Moderator's Note: We are thankful that God is God and that He is not like ANY of us in the way in which He judges and in the way in which He extends grace!!

    [ November 06, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I still disagree with your choice of words DHK, however after your explanation I believe this debate has been resolved as a case of semantic differences.

    Thank you for your graciousness.

    HankD
     
  9. SavedbyHISGrace

    SavedbyHISGrace New Member

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    Do you love the lost? Do you wish to see them saved from eternal punishment, and find a new life in Jesus? Or, do you suppose that you are "better" than they are, bearing in mind that we are all still sinners, even if we are saved? What of, "For God SO LOVED the world..."?

    You are in great need of the love of the Holy Spirit in your heart. I thank God that He is NOT like you(Moderators addition---"or any of us" ), as NONE of us will ever make it to heaven!

    ***Moderator's Note: We are thankful that God is God and that He is not like ANY of us in the way in which He judges and in the way in which He extends grace!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]I feel that this is a clear abuse of power by this Moderator! I for one CANNOT be included in how he has edited my post, since I DO NOT believe that God hates sinners.
     
  10. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Dear SavedbyHISGrace---please check your PM's

    Bro. David
     
  11. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Of course, God has emotions and did not hesitate to show them when He was Jesus on earth.

    The shortest verse in the Bible tells us this.

    Jesus wept.
    John 11:35

    Pappy: I know you are very young. You might want to study this verse so you may become the Christian example that God wants you to be.

    Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
    1Titus 4:12
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That was the Lord Jesus Christ in his humanity. He was tempted in all points such as we.
    As a man, certainly he had emotions. Emotions are a result of the body, not the spirit. God is spirit.
     
  13. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    Whoa! So God is emotionless? What evidence do you have the emotions are solely tied to the body?
     
  14. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Hmmmm. I do not feel emotions in my body. I feel them in my soul (mind - will - intellect) and in my heart.

    A spirit can be wounded by emotions (hurt - anger).
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled

    HankD
     
  16. sketter11

    sketter11 New Member

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    The lord does love sinners but he doesn't love what they are doing.
     
  17. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Amen, sketter, preach it!!!
     
  18. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    You still haven't told us how you would deal with Psalm 5:5

    Are you denying what the verse says???

    See??? Somehow we've got to make Psalm 5:5 "fit in" with John 3:16

    Both are the words of God----how do you get them to "compliment" each other??? Seems to me that you can't have one without the other---for if you look at Psalm 5:5 and disregard John 3:16---you run into a theological "mess"---same way the other way around---to have John 3:16 and disregard Psalm 5:5---you are still stuck on the same "Horns of a dilemma"
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There's nothing to "get around" blackbird. Ps 5:5 doesn't say that God withholds his love. In fact, the Hebrew word "sane" (translated "hate") doesn't carry that connotation at all. It's only in the English that get any connotation that to "hate" one must withhold love. That's strictly an English infusion of meaning, devoid in the Hebrew.

    If Ps 5:5 said God withhold love, the Scriptur lies. But, since this is not what Ps 5:5 is saying, Scripture remains consistent.
     
  20. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    I never said that God withholds His love in Psalm 5:5----if you go back and read some of my posts here---you'll see and probably will agree that because of John 3:16---God "stays" His hand of hate

    God has a hand of hate

    God has a hand of love

    God's hand of love "stays" His hand of hate through His grace that can only be found in the Lord Jesus Christ!! It is only because of His Son, Jesus Christ---that we are not "squashed" by God.
     
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