1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

God Honouring Worship

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by DanielFive, Jun 22, 2003.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 2
  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Read my reply with your Bible open and examine closely the verses in question that are used. So many of them are taken completely out of context, it is not funny.
     
    #21 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2003
  2. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been Scott...
     
    #22 Joshua Rhodes, Jun 25, 2003
  3. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    5
    As for the "scripture' argument, as Superdave had said here a while back: "The reason we do not post scripture left and right, is because much of what is posted as scripture we agree with, it is the philosophy of man that has been extrapolated from the few scriptures that reference music that we have to spend most of our time dealing with. There is no discussion in scripture of styles of music... There is only our own imagined theories on what they must be talking about in the verses. It's amazing to me, that even some of the best Bible expositers throw caution to the wind when interpreting scriptural principles about music. They would never make up so much nonsense about any other area of scripture, but they squish the scriptures into their own mold, and declare the 'truth' about Godly music." I then added: "I myself have always thought that arguments such as this are more about what the Bible does not say, so that is why we end up 'having' less scripture. Instead, scripture winds up being used most by those trying to read something into them".

    The article posted has some good points, but the problem is, as usual, defining the "old paths" in terms of 100, 200 or 400 year old worship and music styles, and the arguments on beats and rhythms. As Scott showed, the bringng in of "contemporary" styles occurred back then as well (and in fact, Horton in Beyond Culture Wars how the 19th century revivals (that much of "traditional worship/music is shaped by), was widely influenced by people like PT Barnum! He, along with McArthur and others point out much of the songs were just as "shallow" and "man-centered". But now, since it is the "traditional old" style, it is assumed to be the biblical "old path". This is why this debate is going nowhere.
     
    #23 Eric B, Jun 25, 2003
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cool! Thanks!
     
    #24 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2003
  5. DanielFive

    DanielFive New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don’t see anything here that is not personal opinion or that can be proven.

    Uummmm, if Luther committed a sin does that make it not a sin. Can we blindly follow Luther, was he without sin?

    If I could I would show you a 20 year-old colleague called Ciaran. He recently purchased a CD by ‘christian’ artists P.O.D. I thought this would open a door for me to witness to him. I told him P.O.D. were a christian band, he laughed and didn’t believe me for a while. He wanted to know what the word ‘Ja’ meant, he said they used this word a lot. Other than that he couldn’t make out most of their lyrics, because he said the music was so prominent that it drowned out the lyrics. He said “How could they be Christians making music like that”

    What could I say? I pointed out that Christians were not above sin or temptation and hoped that I hadn’t done irreparable damage to my witness to him.

    This young lad is a Roman Catholic and as such knows about the christian values of reverence, Godliness and the holy life.

    P.O.D undoubtedly left him confused.

    We are required to worship in spirit and in truth, from the heart. Wheather it sounds good is totally irrelevant. If this was important, as it may have been in OT times then we would be bringing in the finest musicians we could find regardless of wheather they were Christians or not.

    It is unscriptural to use music as a tool to reach the lost. Music is referred to over 800 times in Scripture. Never once was it used for evangelism, always for worship.

    Yeah, interesting story, All praise to the Lord for winning this young soul.

    But what has it got to do with this? The Psalm speaks of singing as a form of worship.

    So why insist in setting it to rock music to make it less offensive? That is your whole argument, that today’s young people won’t come to hear preaching so you must use music to draw them in. Jesus would not have compromised in this way.

    So by providing CCM you are meeting their physical needs?, what’s your point here, I honestly don’t get it.

    None of these things distract from the Word. I also contend that where an organ is used it should be very much in the background only. I would have no objections to using say an acoustic guitar in the same way. It is not the instrument that distracts people from the Word, it is the way it is played.

    As should any minister who squeezes his sermon into 10 minutes in the middle of 90 minutes of music.

    So now you are telling me that salvation is not all of Christ.

    I am to take it that you agree with the remainder of the original article?

    I hope you can follow this post OK, it took me ages to try to make it as readable as possible. Maybe we should deal with one or two points at a time.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
    #25 DanielFive, Jun 25, 2003
  6. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll find some stats for you. Can I use Rick Warren?

    So you admit that some of our great hymsn or the faith are sinful? Just so I can follow...

    POD isn't a Christian band. They're more Rastafarian in nature. Let's more the spectrum to praise and worship music. Is there anyone who has been confused about the lyrical content of a song like "Breathe?"

    POD isn't Christian.

    You added to the Scripture here, by the way.

    In OT times, they brought in believers who were the finest at their craft. THey did not bring pagans to lead the worship. That is important.

    Argument from silence. Logical fallacy.

    Wrong. Singing is a type of worship. If you place singing as the only type of worship, you miss the boat completely. Our lives are to be living sacrifices - that is our true act of worship.

    No, that is not my whole argument - this is why you miss the point. Music is not meant to draw people in. We should be going out into the world, and bringing non-Christians in. You've completely missed everything.

    Then read it again carefully.

    Neither does praise and worship music.

    interestingly enough, the only ones who find that the music is distracting are those who are opposed to it in the first place. It's not a sound issue - it's a heart issue.

    10 minutes is nowhere near enough time to do the Word justice, but I've never heard of a church where this is so.

    Salvation is all of God. But God has given man a responsibility to preach the gospel to all the world (Acts 1:8).

    I showed you specifically what I agreed with and what I disagreed with. The better question is: Are you prepared to concede the arguments that dealt with your Scriptures being ripped out of their apporpriate context. If you do concede them, then you pretty much lose this argument.

    I would say that the Scriptural points are more important that what you focused on, but whatever.
     
    #26 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2003
  7. DanielFive

    DanielFive New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    Use anyone you like, just as long as you can prove that he/she can read hearts. As I told you before its not a question of numbers, its a question of true repentance brought about by the Holy Spirit using the Word to convict sinners.


    You say Luther did it, yet you provide no evidence, am I supposed to take your word for it, knowing your bias. If you want to sidestep the real issue by discussing Luther, start a new thread. I'll be happy to discuss it once you provide the source of this claim.


    POD may now be a mainstream band, but all their members are professing Christians and in their early days they toured with CCM artists. Lets not get sidetracked by debating on POD, there are two other threads on this forum relating to the band.

    I sense you are running for cover. Lets not move the spectrum at all. I'll be happy to focus on Praise and Worship once you concede that a Christian has no right to bring CCM/Rock music and particularly secular music (eg.Backstreet Boys) into the church in order to be pagan-friendly.


    I wasn't quoting Scripture verbatim, when I do I always quote Chapter and Verse. As those who are familiar with Scripture will know, I was paraphrasing John 4:24 and Ephesians 5:19b. In no way have I added to Scripture.

    When building the temple Soloman choose the best artists known in his day ie.the Phonecians. (See 2 Chronicles 2)

    Wow! 0/800 thats a deafening silence, isn't it.
    I think you're the one with the fallacious argument here.


    I didn't say singing was the only form of worship.


    I've not missed anything, you want to use music to make non-converted pagans feel confortable in church. We are to bring non-christians to Christ, not into the meeting of believers. We meet together to worship God, by trying to cater to non-believers during this meeting you are losing sight of the purpose of the meeting.

    Our instruction is to "go out" not to "bring them in".

    It is not wrong or sinful to invite a non-believer to church but it is wrong when you try to make the service appealing to them rather than keeping the focus on the worship of God. You cannot please a Holy God and an unregenerate man at the same time.


    Of course Christ is our example, he was without sin.


    Running for cover again. What about the Backstreet Boys.


    I think this statement is completely backwards. The only people who care about true worship are those whose hearts are right. Those who want to worship in spirit and in truth obviously want a less aesthetic form of worship than those who don't care.


    Fair enough, what is the service at your Church like?. You have never told me what church you attend, do they have a website?

    Yeah, go out and preach it.

    You commented on some of the article and ignored some of the article. By the way I'm not concerned about 'winning an argument' my concern is only that as Christians we should both be obedient to the Word of God. Hopefully we can come to an agreement.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
    #27 DanielFive, Jun 26, 2003
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since neither of us can read hearts and understand true repentance, then we're at an impasse. What I can offer is my own personal experience as well as those who I interact with on at least a weekly basis.

    White - Opening the Front Door, 2002

    See what they say now. They are not Christian, any more than Creed is.

    I assume that the Backstreet Boys is referring to our using them during the mission trip. That was not a worship service, btw. It was used to reach out to the community. There are two different types of CCM, those that are designed to be used in church for worship and those that are not. Why not let us focus on those that are designed to be used in church? (Most of these songs would be classified as Praise and Worship.)

    You still mixed the Scriptures, I would say, but it's really a moot point.

    WHere in II Chronicles do you see Solomon bringing in "hired musicians" to lead worship? IN fact, if you read a couple of chapters later, you see that those who led in worship were consecrated before playing their instruments. AND they were all priests.

    An argument from silence is where the one arguing assumes that if a source is silent than it is obviously false. (And we've been over the fact that I addressed all of your Scriptures by showing you others and by correcting where you ripped them out of context. Just because you repeat yourself does not make a statement less false.)

    I read you wrong. The point, though, is that this young girl was able to experience worship through the reading of the Word. That was the "new song" to her.

    I don't believe that the purpose of music is to make non-converted pagans feel comfortable in church. I do want to bring Christians to church. We do meet together to worship God. By inviting non-Christians to church, we are NOT losing sight of the purpose. DOes that help you?

    They will not come in if we do not go out.

    First you say, "Our instruction is to 'go out' instead of 'bring them 'in,'" then you say, "It is not wrong or sinful to invite a non-believer to church." Which is it? Did you know that it is possible that God can be worshipped completely and truly WHILE God speaks to an unsaved person? It really is.

    Then are you eating at the homes of non-believers?

    Just trying to stay on topic. The Backstreet BOys music was on a different forum for a reason. We weren't worshipping to the Backstreet Boys.

    Sshhhh... Let me tell you a secret... One of the main reasons that people such as David Crowder, Chris Tomlin, and Ross King write the songs that they do is because they care about true worship.

    Ironically, people find satisfaction and beauty in hymns just as others find satisfaction and beauty in praise and worship choruses.

    Blended. It's an awful lot like Joshua Rhodes' church. We worship in song for about 30-45 minutes, using a blended service. Usually there is a drama that directly ties into the pastor's message. The pastor then preaches for about 30 mintues.

    When I lead worship for the youth, we play about 75% praise and worship and 25% hymns for about 30 minutes, I speak for about 20-30 minutes. We usually have some experiential stuff thrown in, as they are students. We vary things a lot, too.

    I do.

    WHat did I ignore? I addressed everything of relevance. I snipped some of the Scriptures for space' sake, but I did note that I agreed with it - if I disagreed, I gave reason why.

    Again, you dismissed more than a few references where I showed that the author used that were ripped out of its context. Can we assume that you concede those points, and the Scriptures indeed do not say what the author posited them to say?
     
    #28 ScottEmerson, Jun 26, 2003
  9. DanielFive

    DanielFive New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scott,

    I haven't had time to think about this today, I'll get back to you asap.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
    #29 DanielFive, Jun 27, 2003
  10. DanielFive

    DanielFive New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thats another debate, not really relevant here anyway. I've never heard of White by the way. Is he from the new-wave site?

    Don't think I done anything wrong here. You are getting a bit petty.

    Fair point, I'll have a look at this.

    What's it called when the source is silent and the one arguing thinks it is obviously true?

    That's to be commended.

    Yes, if you are being sincere. This is not what comes across in your posts.

    I accept I wasn't clear enough here. We 'go out' with the Word, after they are converted we 'bring them into fellowship'. If they choose to visit the church before they are converted it is obviously wrong to close the door in their face, they should be met with a hospitable response which is our Christian duty. However we shouldn't change the order of service in an effort to make them feel less spiritually uncomfortable.

    Yes, but I respect anyone whose conscience wouldn't allow it.

    No you weren't worshipping God, that's for sure.
    Don't you believe we are to be holy seven days a week?

    I had a look at your website. Very good.

    I certainly commend you for this aspect of your work and pray that the Lord would use the preaching of the Gospel to bring many more young people to Christ through your ministry.

    Confession time, I seem to have missed two of your four original posts. You seem to have dealt with all of the article so I apologise for accusing you of ignoring some of it.

    I'll have a look at your earlier posts again.

    Scott, I honestly don't know if there is anything to be gained by further discussion on this subject. We obviously have different viewpoints and there are people on the Board who share both your view and mine.

    I accept your right to believe what you want to believe, I also accept that you do give consideration to my views. However I haven't changed my mind and I'm not sensing that you are about to change yours.

    Both articles stand side-by-side on the board, people are capable of making up their own minds as to what they believe. I don't want to give you or anyone else the impression that I am shoving my opinions down your throat.

    I sensed how upset you were at Aaron's response to you in the Pagan-friendly Worship thread so I think it would be best if we leave this debate here.

    You are welcome to the last word on the subject.

    I hope you will share my desire to avoid any ill-feeling or hostility.

    In Christ,

    Enda
     
    #30 DanielFive, Jun 28, 2003
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    There isn't much to say, so your post can be the last word on this subject, I suppose (but there will be others, of course!)

    If you'd like to address the other two posts, please do.
     
    #31 ScottEmerson, Jun 28, 2003
  12. DanielFive

    DanielFive New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll leave it for now Scott, I've got a lot on over the next week or two. As you say we'll cross swords again shortly.

    Thanks for the discussion.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
    #32 DanielFive, Jun 28, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 2
Loading...