1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

God is a God of Reason: Why Calvinism Fails

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Aug 3, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinists often dismiss criticisms of unconditional election, insisting that it must be true, despite being contrary to reason. The Bible, on the other hand, reveals that God is a God of reason:

    Isaiah 1:18
    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    Isaiah 43:26
    Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together;
    State your cause, that you may be proved right.

    If we are created in the image of God, then we should be able to use our God-given ability to reason and read the scriptures for ourselves to draw our own conclusions, rather than reading a Calvinist framework into them.

    Acts 17:11
    Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    If it seems unreasonable that God would send the mass of humanity to eternal conscious torment in hell, without ever having the choice between rejecting or accepting the free offer of God's grace in the Gospel, then it's likely untrue.

    Free Will is Taught in the Bible...

    Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

    John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

    N. T. Wright on Predestination and Election

    The main difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not whether God's enabling grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel, but whether this enabling grace is given to all people equally or just a select few:



    In the words of Calvinist apologist Cornelius Van Til, "Sin did not take away from man any of the natural powers that God had given him."
    The Defense of the Faith

    This would include our natural ability to choose between accepting or rejecting God's free offer of salvation in the Gospel.

    If we were created in the image and likeness of God, that includes free will if God is a free being.

    While Calvinists are indeed our brothers and sisters in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with our salvation.

    "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."
     
    #1 Humble Disciple, Aug 3, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    20,184
    Likes Received:
    2,201
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Back to the Hippie avatar...
    Perhaps you are Jesse Morrel. lol.

    All of these anti-Cals sites are useless.
     
  3. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the words of Calvinist apologist Cornelius Van Til, "Sin did not take away from man any of the natural powers that God had given him."
    The Defense of the Faith

    This would include our natural ability to choose between accepting or rejecting God's free offer of salvation in the Gospel.

    If we were created in the image and likeness of God, that includes free will if God is a free being.
     
  4. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    377
    Faith:
    Baptist
    humbled

    Thats true, thats why God doesnt reason with the dead, see man by nature is dead to God, he died to God in Adam, and so there is no reasoning with the dead. By nature are minds are blinded 2 Cor 3:14

    But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

    2 Cor 4:4

    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Mans mental reasoning is void of Spiritual Life and so its reasoning is under the power of sin and death.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It appears that you might be reading the Augustinian doctrine of original sin into the Bible:
    Does the Bible teach Original Sin?

    The main difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not whether God's enabling grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel, but whether this enabling grace is given to all people equally or just a select few:

     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    377
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When folk are dead, they need to be made alive. You dont enable dead people, you either make them alive to act, or they remain dead. Dead men cant reason , they dead ! poof
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    65
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When you say make them alive what you really mean is be regenerated/born again/saved. That is not biblical that's calvinism.

    So what was God saying in these verses.
    Deu 4:27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you.

    Deu 4:28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell.

    Deu 4:29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

    Was God be disingenuous when He said they could seek & find Him? We see that even though the people had turned to false gods they still had the ability to seek God and find Him. This text describes the nature of genuine repentance: a turning away from sin, unto obedience to God and His ways.

    Jer 29:12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.


    Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.


    Jer 29:14 I will be found by you, says the LORD,

    Note again here that it is the people that call upon God and seek Him. The emphasis here is that His people must chose to return to Him God does not make them do it. As we know not all the Jews returned to Jerusalem


    Hos 5:15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."


    The first step in repentance is confession of sin; the second, turning to God. Man must recognize their sinful ways, turn from them and seek Gods’ forgiveness.


    We see that man can seek God, they can repent of their sinful ways.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Back to the ole "its not fair" mantra !
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Looks like NT Wrong strikes again!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What aspect of manking not affected by the fall of Adam?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If No original Sin, why are we lost and in rebellion against God until born again and saved>
     
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    925
    Likes Received:
    377
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The scripture teaches man is naturally dead to God, Spiritually dead !
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,587
    Likes Received:
    1,290
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What does Scripture say?

    " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"
    ( Ephesians 1:3-8 ).

    Contrary to human reasoning, I see this declaring, in no uncertain terms, that it was God who chose the believer in Christ.
    It was done before the foundation of the world, and according to the good pleasure of His will.
    It was also to the praise of the glory of His grace, and He made us accepted in the beloved.

    Notice that it does not say that we made ourselves accepted in the beloved.

    "Unconditional Election" right there, HD.
    I'm not sure how you missed it.

    Since the Lord chose the believers at Ephesus in Christ, and that choice was made before the foundation of the world, then it was indeed unconditional on their part.
     
    #14 Dave G, Aug 4, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  15. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

    Free Will is Taught in the Bible...

    N. T. Wright on Predestination and Election

    The Corporate View of Election

    In the words of Calvinist apologist Cornelius Van Til, "Sin did not take away from man any of the natural powers that God had given him."
    The Defense of the Faith

    This would include our natural ability to choose between accepting or rejecting God's free offer of salvation in the Gospel.

    If we were created in the image and likeness of God, that includes free will if God is a free being.

    The main difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not whether God's enabling grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel, but whether this enabling grace is given to all people equally or just a select few:

    Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

    "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

    Ecclesiastes 7:18
    It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

    1 Corinthians 8:2-3
    Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,587
    Likes Received:
    1,290
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To me, being born again is not salvation.
    It is a benefit of being saved and happens in real time for one of God's elect.

    It is to be "quickened" ( Ephesians 2:1-6, Colossians 2:13 ), or made alive towards God and in Christ.
    It is completely Scriptural.
    He was assuring the nation of Israel, whom He had made a covenant with, that if they sought Him with all their heart, they would find Him.
    That same promise applies to all men.

    The problem is, no one does ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 58 ).
    In fact, we all run the opposite direction, in our hearts ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20 ).
    Not at all.
    I don't see the Lord stating that they had the desire or the ability.
    I see Him making a promise, and nothing more.

    He's pleading with His people Israel, whom He again, had made a covenant with and it was they who had agreed to keep it.
    I agree.
    See Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3 for who it is that repents and turns away from sin and towards God.
    Amen.
    I agree...once they are set free by the power of God.
     
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,587
    Likes Received:
    1,290
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is no such thing as "essentials", HD.
    Every word of God is important, and the believer must ( and will, by the power of the Spirit ) live by them.

    See Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4.
    You won't find that concept anywhere in God's word, sir, with regard to doctrine and the Gospel.
     
  18. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whether one accepts or rejects Calvinism has nothing to do with whether or not one is saved.

    Free Will Baptists on Predestination & Election
     
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,587
    Likes Received:
    1,290
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But whether or not one believes God's word, and all of it, shows whether or not they are of God ( John 8:43-47 ).
    Those who reject God's words are not His, HD.
     
  20. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    35
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is the statement of faith from the National Association of Free Will Baptists, people can read it and decide for themselves if it agrees with the plain meaning of scripture, especially regarding the essentials of salvation:

    What We Believe – National Association of Free Will Baptists, Inc

    The main difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not whether God's enabling grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel, but whether this enabling grace is given to all people equally or just a select few:
    Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

    "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

    Ecclesiastes 7:18
    It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

    1 Corinthians 8:2-3
    Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

    Bearing False Witness is a Sin, A Warning of God's Judgment
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...