God' Soveriegnty

Bro Tony,

just as yourself as well as many misguided await the actual returning of ALL OF ISRAELITES. this scripture is speaking of the vessels of Wrath, and the vessels of mercy. (another reference to the law of the firstborn expressed. where one dies for the other.)
the vessels of mercy will one day humble themselves before their father for the betterment and forgiveness of the vessels of wrath. not for the Nation of ALL ISRAELITES FROM ALL OF HISTORY.

just as the angels and demons wrestle for the human race. the vessels of wrath and mercy will likewise continue the grudge match. only in the next age. the vessels of mercy will overcome the vessels of wrath.

having a working relationship with God is a heck of a lot better than "proper hermenutics anyday.

so without the proper understanding. those words in the bible are meaningless. their parables and proverbs to the wise.

(doesnt the word "world" translate "age"...hmmm?)

Me2

 

Bro Tony,

It is the receiving of the revelation from God that allows 2 people to agree.
If both of us didnt receive the same revelation and receive the same unveiling of the wisdom found within the bible.
we would most certainly be coming from different directions. more than two I would venture.
I realize there is only one true interpretation and 100's of wrong ones.
We are said to be tabernacling with God as the message is to each as personal and a mystery to only those whom God tells. which multiplies the complexities of meeting two people who hold the truth and can express it.

most of the time. the truth is overlooked while the hearer has their own viewpoint and isnt allowing God to speak any further with them about it.

been doing this for 25 years. I know the difficulties. although any orthodox views can be easily accepted. why? cause man made'em up.

Me2

 

Double predestination certainly makes God a monster.

 

To overplay the sovereignty of God is to do a grave disservice to our God who is God of Divine justice. His justice would be eternally defiled and even perhaps God would have disenfranchized Himself as being the Divine Being we call God. If God is not God of justice then He shows His partiality toward some and not others. This cannot happen in His Divine program toward human beings.

The Gospel still has to be preached and humans have to respond to the call of the Gospel. There response either places them among the elect who are then made fit for Heaven or their negative response shuts them out of His eternal abode.

Sovereignty was originally Augustine and Calvin's pipe-dream and surely was not whispered to us by the Holy Spirit of God.

 

I do not think I am wrong in saying that the word sovereignty is not found in either the Old or New Testaments. Christ's love, justice, mercy and vengeance is written about in His Scriptures.

 

PB,

Could you explain this double predestination, I am not sure I have heard of the term.

Thanks,
Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Double predestination says that because God predestinated some to salvation, therefore, it logically follows that the rest He predestinated to hell. They sometimes interchange election and predestination.

I might be wrong but among today's Reformed Faith leaders, I think John Piper is teaching this. Again, I might be wrong. But, this teaching is certainly alive and well today, even among my own people, the Primitive Baptists. We call them the Absoluters.

You are correct that such a view makes of God the author of evil and therefore is the cause for man's doing evil.

 

You are wrong. The word rapture is not found in the Scriptures either, nor the word mission, or missionary, yet, you hold to the doctrines attached to those terms.

Argue God out of His sovereignty. Tell Him he does not mean what He said, that He is a King beholden to you and those of your kind who think His sovereignty is just Augustine's and Calvin's pipe dream:

" Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. " Job 41:4 -

Was Nebuchadnezzar still in a state of shock when he said:

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

I guess the Holy Spirit was om an ego trip for allowing old Nebo to write down something describing Him to be a sovereign God to whom even mighty kings are subject, right ?

Oh, before we forget Paul, I guess he, too, was having a pipe dream of his own when he wrote to the Romans, in chapter 9, from verses 14-24 that:

• 
  
  1. No one can accuse God of unrighteousness (not the Romans, not you);
  2.He dispenses His compassions to whom He will;
  3. Not to one who tries to please him in any way;
  4.Even Pharaoh, mightiest king in his time anywhere, was subject to God's disposition;
  5.That men, including yourself, are having a pipe dream if they think they can question God's decisions;
  
  There you go, sovereignty, umistakably. And you think you can define God's sovereignty for himself ? And consider those who place God high above all gods to be simply Calvinists, and non-Christians ?
  
  Now, you're having a pipe dream.

 

Ray,

You Said: To overplay the sovereignty of God is to do a grave disservice to our God who is God of Divine justice. His justice would be eternally defiled and even perhaps God would have disenfranchized Himself as being the Divine Being we call God. If God is not God of justice then He shows His partiality toward some and not others. This cannot happen in His Divine program toward human beings.

This statement is unfortunate at best. Let's think about this. God's sovereignty is the single most defining charachteristic of God Himself. Without it, He wouldn't be God. Perhaps we can get deeper into this later.

God and justice. Your stament implies that God must treat people equally to be righteous. How then do you deal with "Jacob I loved; Esau I hated?" Further, how do you deal with the entire Old Testament and the account of God choosing for Himself a "special" people? Was God unjust to the rest of the world because He chose Israel and no others?

You Continue: The Gospel still has to be preached and humans have to respond to the call of the Gospel. There response either places them among the elect who are then made fit for Heaven or their negative response shuts them out of His eternal abode.

Suprisingly, I agree with and affirm this statement, with one correction. I would replace the word "Places" with the word(s) "Shows them to be."

The Gospel MUST be preached. This is no secret, it is simply God's design. A real Calvinist affirms this.

You say (at the conclusion of one post and continued into another: Sovereignty was originally Augustine and Calvin's pipe-dream and surely was not whispered to us by the Holy Spirit of God.

I do not think I am wrong in saying that the word sovereignty is not found in either the Old or New Testaments. Christ's love, justice, mercy and vengeance is written about in His Scriptures.

These staments are really not good!

First let me say that the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, yet it is a truly Biblical concept. In fact, if you are not a trinitarian, you are not a Christian. You would not deny the existance and revelation of a "Trinity" because the word itself does not appear in the Bible, would you?

As I hope you would not reject the doctrine of the trinity, I will provide verses which speak about God's total sovereingty.

Psalm 115:3 (ESV)
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.

That pretty-much explains it all! I'll still continue:

Romans 8:28 (ESV)
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

If God is not Sovereign, how can He turn bad, sinful, destructive things into Good?

Acts 4:24 (ESV)
And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,

1 Tim. 6:15 (ESV)
which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Rev. 6:10 (ESV)
They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

These three verses have the word "Sovereign" in them--and it is ascribed to God.

Isaiah 43:7 (ESV)
everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."

God created us for His glory. This sounds like sovereignty to me.

God must be totally Sovereign to be God. Sovereignty is a tricky thing--it is an all or nothing proposition. Again, we can discuss this further at a later time.

Blessings,

Archangel

PS. You may want to read this: John Piper on God's Sovereingty and His Love. Perhaps you'd like to see this page too: John Piper on the Sovereignty of God

 

Pinoybaptist

You are wrong. The word rapture is not found in the Scriptures either, nor the word mission, or missionary, yet, you hold to the doctrines attached to those terms.

Argue God out of His sovereignty. Tell Him he does not mean what He said, that He is a King beholden to you and those of your kind who think His sovereignty is just Augustine's and Calvin's pipe dream:

" Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. " Job 41:4 -

Was Nebuchadnezzar still in a state of shock when he said:

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

I guess the Holy Spirit was om an ego trip for allowing old Nebo to write down something describing Him to be a sovereign God to whom even mighty kings are subject, right ?

Oh, before we forget Paul, I guess he, too, was having a pipe dream of his own when he wrote to the Romans, in chapter 9, from verses 14-24 that:

• 
  
  1. No one can accuse God of unrighteousness (not the Romans, not you);
  2.He dispenses His compassions to whom He will;
  3. Not to one who tries to please him in any way;
  4.Even Pharaoh, mightiest king in his time anywhere, was subject to God's disposition;
  5.That men, including yourself, are having a pipe dream if they think they can question God's decisions;
  
  There you go, sovereignty, umistakably. And you think you can define God's sovereignty for himself ? And consider those who place God high above all gods to be simply Calvinists, and non-Christians ?
  
  Now, you're having a pipe dream.

• </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent post, my fellow "Old Liner."
  
  Blessings,
  
  Archangel

 

Hi Everyone;
What bothers me about the Sovereignty of God as explained by the Calvinist view is. What does it have to do with man having a choice in his own Salvation. To say Sovereignty prohibits it, is nonsense. If God's Sovereignty was so rigid that it wouldn't allow a decision for Salvation,then it seems to me there wouldn't have never been any sin either. Or Satan for that matter.

Sovereignty as explained by Calvinist would mean that it is God's will that men do what He Himself hates most, which is all manner of sin. What about the sin's committed towards His children? Are you saying that God is not a good Father because He allows His Children to be hurt for no good reason. I heard some say that God allows sin to happen to achieve His purpose and that all things work together for good to those who love Him.

SIN NEVER DID ANY GOOD.

Maybe you could tell me what good sin did for a lady in our church who was beaten nearly to death for her Social Security check.

All I can say is that the Sovereignty of God is sadly not what you claim it is.

May God Bless You all;
Mike

 

The Archangel,

Mr piper as well as mr. edwards both humble themselves to the version of sovereignty that calvinists are know for...incomplete.

they persistently give God sovereignty over his creation until after the seperation of the vessels of wrath and mercy. while in hell, the vessels of wrath seem to revive in their capacity to freely choose over the will of God..
for their choice is to remain in hell circumventing the will of God.
( who has the capacity to offer infinite mercy.)

with the system of election come the necessity of judgement. judgement is defined by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ from death. the same resurrection that abolished death and payed mankinds sin deabt before God.
there is no reason man should be trapped in a state of unrighteousness and torment unless man revives his "free will" to choose overagainst the Sovereign will of God....so he thinks.

chauncy vs edwards debate

as talbott and chauncy holds to the universal reconciliation position. vs the edwards and piper position of eternal torment.

edwards and piper both negate the full sovereignty of God over his creation by allowing man "free will" in hell overagainst the desire of God that all men be saved.

(I agree with talbotts position by the way )

Me2

 

ILUVLIGHT,

You wrote: What bothers me about the Sovereignty of God as explained by the Calvinist view is. What does it have to do with man having a choice in his own Salvation. To say Sovereignty prohibits it, is nonsense. If God's Sovereignty was so rigid that it wouldn't allow a decision for Salvation,then it seems to me there wouldn't have never been any sin either. Or Satan for that matter.

There is a proper, Biblical Calvinism and there is also an inproper one. I'd like to think that I subscribe to the proper one. Let me explain.

Biblical Calvinists believe that man has a responsibility to respond to the Gospel. BUT, we run into the following passage:

Romans 3:9-12 (ESV)
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, [10] as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

We are, then, left with a problem: IF we have a responsibility to respond how does this happen when the Bible clearly states we do not have the ability to respond.

The answer is simple and difficult at the same time. Simply put, God enables the Elect to choose. This is called regeneration. At the point of regeneration, the person is no longer spiritually dead and will be able to "Seek after God." We are freed from our slavery to sin and depravity by God's act of regenerating us. At that point, we are free to seek and choose Him. Therefore, regeneration preceeds redemption.

Notice, however, that man is still required to repent and believe. What we are saying is that left to himself, man will not do this. Therefore, God intervenes and regenerates some so that this is accomplished.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

Mr piper as well as mr. edwards both humble themselves to the version of sovereignty that calvinists are know for...incomplete.

they persistently give God sovereignty over his creation until after the seperation of the vessels of wrath and mercy. while in hell, the vessels of wrath seem to revive in their capacity to freely choose over the will of God..
for their choice is to remain in hell circumventing the will of God.
( who has the capacity to offer infinite mercy.)

with the system of election come the necessity of judgement. judgement is defined by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ from death. the same resurrection that abolished death and payed mankinds sin deabt before God.
there is no reason man should be trapped in a state of unrighteousness and torment unless man revives his "free will" to choose overagainst the Sovereign will of God....so he thinks.

chauncy vs edwards debate

as talbott and chauncy holds to the universal reconciliation position. vs the edwards and piper position of eternal torment.

edwards and piper both negate the full sovereignty of God over his creation by allowing man "free will" in hell overagainst the desire of God that all men be saved.

(I agree with talbotts position by the way )

Me2 </font>[/QUOTE]Me2,

I don't understand what you are saying. Sure I see that you disagree with me, Piper, and Edwards. Please, for my sake, state your disagreement(s) and arguments for or against more plainly.

Blessings,

Archangel

PS. Thanks for the link

 

Bro Tony,

You wrote: I believe God is sovereign. I don't believe that God loses any of His sovereignty in creating man with the ability to chose to accept Him or reject Him.

I have a simple question related to this. Is God's will able to be thwarted, in any way, by man's decision?

Blessings,

Archangel

 

You know, Mike, I thought I had a serious attention span problem in school, and even in adult life. Apparently, most Arminians do, too.

You see, no Calvinist, and no one adhering to the Doctrines of Grace, defines the Sovereignty of God as you do. The sovereignty of God allows Him to be merciful to many who, like all the rest, do not deserve mercy.

His sovereignty allows Him not to be responsible to you, or Ray Berrian, or any of the Arminians, and explain why he chose this one and not the other, why he does not simply choose everybody, and why he must leave others to their sins and its consequences both in this plane called time and in eternity.

His sovereignty makes Him God, King of kings, Decision Maker, Ruler of Heaven and Earth, and, we, my dear co-member of the board, are all subject to His mercy, and His mercy is great and just.

On the other hand, man's total depravity, and not God's sovereignty, is what prevents him to approach God with godly repentance and sorrow fitting for one who has offended the Most High, Holy, and Pure God.