Featured God will call His Elect to Salvation

We're not far off here.

The difference is how much God reveals of himself to people and how able they are to see it.

But there is no choice. Everyone exposed to gravity believes in it. They don't choose to believe in it. It causes them to beleive in it.

 

Enough - always. (Rom 1:20)

Yes there is.

God's loving offer isn't gravity. The exposure/influence is ongoing according to His judgment and calls for a response. Your analogy fails.

Yes, they do.

It influences to them believe in it, or not.

 

What? "exposure/influence ongoing" blah, blah, blah? Do YOU even know what you are talking about?

 

Here's a popular verse that gets bandied about:

Look closely at that first line, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve"...

Now, most will state that this is a choice to serve God or not. If you thought it was evil to serve the Lord, would you? I sure wouldn't.

 

Very good point. Their choice to serve was based on what they BELIEVED.

They did not choose to believe, they chose to serve based on what they believed.

It's like saying, "If it seem safe unto you to cross this rope bridge, choose you this day to cross or not to cross."

The choice to cross is based on something that has HAPPENED TO the potential crosser. That something that has happened to him is that he has been persuaded that it is safe or he has NOT been persuaded.

The bridge either convinced the potential crosser that it was trustworthy or it didn't.

God persuades some men that he is Lord. Others do not get persuaded. No choice involved.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: I'm beginning to tally a big royalty check for Brother Quant...LOL

And this brings us right back to the crux of the argument...NATURE. Men choose according to their nature. Whilst Moses was on Mt. Sinai getting the Ten Commandments, the Israelites made them an idol of gold and worshipped it. They chose according to their nature....they chose a lifeless idol, because they were spiritually lifeless.

 

I agree. Faith comes through revelation, just as trust is built for your wife through revelation (getting to know her).

I believe God is clearly making himself known (Rm 1) and the gospel itself only builds upon what is already revealed in creation, thus creating a very powerful and convincing truth by which our TRUST can grow...assuming we don't CHOOSE to trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies allowing our hearts to grow hardened and defiled (as Paul warns in Rm 1).

All men are without excuse for not placing their trust in God, but Calvinism creates a new excuse for all men that isn't ever taught in scripture, which is, "God doesn't provide the ability for some to clearly see, understand and willingly respond to the revelation of Himself."

Oh contraire . There are still people who 'trade obvious truths in for lies' all the time (see links below)...which is why they are 'without excuse,' according to Paul in Romans 1. Don't give them their excuse back Luke!

GRAVITY IS AN ILLUSION?>>>>>

THE EARTH IS FLAT>>>>

Need I say more?

 

This is exactly why I can't affirm God as described by Calvinists. I understand that they don't think God is evil, but if I were to accept their beliefs about God I would have to believe that God is evil and I would not CHOOSE serve that "God." People believe things everyday but still choose to act contrary to those beliefs. Some are told if they continue to smoke they will die, and they believe it but choose to smoke anyway. There is a choice involved as to whether you will believe like a demon, and continue in disobedience, or choose to follow the one you believe....you choose to place your TRUST in Him.

 

problem is that satan and his demons believe that Jesus is real, is the Lord, but refuse to put faith in Him as THEIR Lord, same with sinners, as natural revealtion can gey them to see God exists, even have head knowledge of who Jesus was, but ONLY the Spirit can give them saving faith 'heart knowledge!"

 

Brother, as fallen creatures, all they know/knew was darkness. All they can choose is darkness until God brings the Light to them. They then can see how vile they are. Unless God brings the Light to them, they are stuck in that darkness...and the love it...

 

Indeed. I'm glad we agree. So, when God does brings someone the light (i.e. the gospel truth), don't excuse those who reject it by suggesting they were born unable to clearly understand or respond to that light.

 

The point is there revealatory light ascribed in Psalms 19 and Romans 1 that shows people there's God. Then there's the Light which shines into the heart of His sheep. They will come when that Light shines...

 

Now, I want to expound upon that previous post of mine. I am sure I can find how far our agreement goes. We are born sinners, sinners as being born in Adam...or I think you hold to this view...if I am wrong, please forgive me. As sinners, we are spiritually dead...not akin a corpse dead, but dead to righteousness...IOW, we're in the dark. In this darkened state, we are also blind, with a hardened heart. No amount of gospel preaching can change this state. That's why I am anti-gospel regeneration.(I think this is where I agreement stops, btw) If it took someone to hear the gospel to be regenerated, then the deaf people are goners. God is the one that does the regeneration, and then the gospel expounds upon it. They have new eyes to see with...coming out of darkness into that glorious Light. They have a new heart, a fleshly heart, a heart of love. They have ears to hear with. All of these took place at the point of regeneartion. Here's some passages to ponder:

As you can see, those who die lost, have no desire to come to the Light. Why? They love darkness, they're content to stay in darkness. They believe their good works and "God loves everyone" means they can do these good deeds and based solely on "God's equal love for all mankind" will take them to heaven. There are homosexual couples that actively work in their "church". They pay their tithes, they pray, they vist the sick, homeless, are good to their neighbors, etc. They think/believe they're going to heaven when they leave this world. They have been deceived and yet, they live happily in discord with the record of God. No amount of "thumping the pulpit" preaching will change their minds. It takes God to reveal this to them. If He doesn't, then they were not of His, and He left them in their already fallen state.



Here's some more verses to ponder:

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.


John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Now, let's look at one more passage that your side of the debate loves to use:

Now, in verse 11, it says all men. The universal atonement folk say, "Well goody, goody. Everybody's got a chance to go to heaven." Look at the follwing verses. It says the grace of God "teaches us" to live soberly, righteously and Godly in this present world. Apparently the grace of God is a very bad teacher if this means any and everybody w/o exception. Just read your newspapers, watch your tv's, listen to your radioes. There's a lot of bad teaching if He is teaching everybody w/o exception to live righteously, soberly, and Godly.

Then there's "Gave Himself for us" and "redeemed us". Who is the "us" in this passage? The church, which Christ gave his life for(Ephesians 5:25). Then in John 10, who did Jesus say the good Shepherd was? Who would the Shepherd give His life for? He's the good Shepherd who gave His life for His sheep. He even prayed for His sheep in John 17, and not for the world. He then said, "not for these only, but those who would believe their word."

So the "all men" in verse 11 of Titus 2, has to be the church, the bride, the elct, the chosen, the sheep...those He chose from the foundation of the world. And these He chose from the foundation of the world, will have that Light shine in their darkened heart, and it will cause a Godly sorrow to set up, and bring about God-given repentance(2 Cor. 7:10). This God-given repentance will then bring them to Him, and they will surrender their life into His hands.

 

Here is where we disagree. Please read Acts 28 below:

26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"​

Willis, take note of three important points:

1. They weren't born hardened/calloused as you suggested, but they 'become calloused' over time after much rebellion.

2. Had they not 'become calloused' notice what they might have done otherwise: "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn"

3. Notice the contrast with the Jews who have been HARDENED, and the Gentiles who are not? "they will listen." Why would they be able to listen any better than the Jews if they were born in the same fallen, totally depraved, hardened condition?

Thanks for your time today brother!

 

the message of the Cross is indeed good news to those whom God has chosen to hear and receive it with gladness, but to all others, it is foolishness to them, and condemns them further for rejecting it!

 

I've got to go teach GED classes at our local prison right now so I don't have time to deal with all of this. Let me just make one quick clarification.

EVERYBODY believes in "gravity" though they may call it something else. But no one denies that there is something holding us on the earth.

Sane people have NO CHOICE but to believe in it.

 

Look at Pharoah during the time of Moses. God hardened his heart, and he also hardened it himself. Man can also harden his heart. And so can God. The gentiles will hear, yes. The Jews will hear, yes. Those who were chosen, in God's own time, will hear.

 

jesus said that his parables were a mystery to thsoe not granted by god ears to hear and hearts/minds to understand, so wouldn;t that be true today, that most listen are tone deaf to the message, while those given ears tio hear will hear understand respond?

 

Yup.........

 

paul stated that the Gospel is power of gid unto salvation, to those who were chosen in Christ, but to the rest, it brings conviction and doom!

So depending on who is hearing it, gospel is BOTH good and bad news!