God's Anger and His Wrath

God's Anger and Wrath

Ed,

You may not have as much time for BB as you seemed to have had while discussing views with me! But I am highly impressed with your display of resolution and resilience after "bending and stretching" your point of view without apparent stress!! Probably that's one reason you persevered 34 years on the same job!!!

Mel

 

Anger and Wrath

robycop3,

Evidently you have not read my question as to why the KJV nor NKJV never
once translated THUMOS as "anger"! Instead they translated it as "wrath" which
leads to the error you express by saying they mean "virtually the same thing"!! I hope you will consider the following!!!

In another thread on "Judgment/Krisis" I wrote:

The KJV and NKJV "invert" the translation of THUMOS and ORGAY so that you would think God's "ANGER" is no more than "INDIGNATION" which is their translation of THUMOS in Rom.2:8. The KJV never recognizes that THUMOS means ANGER!! It therefore leaves the impression that it is OK to switch the meaning of ORGAY to Indignation in Rev.14:10 after translating THUMOS in Rom.2:8 as Indignation!!!

Does this mean "anger and wrath", as well as "indignation and wrath"
are meanings of both Thumos and Orgay? Or does it mean that the "vain
traditions" of men overruled the REAL truth (of Rom.2:4) that God's "long-anger" must reach the point of "exhaustion" before it explodes in the Cup of Wrath?? Why is it that no Bible except the New Jerusalem Bible renders Rev.15:1 as meaning the "PLAGUES EXHAUST GOD'S ANGER" rather than "completing His WRATH???

ORGAY means "wrath" in Rom.2:5,8 and in Rev.14:10! They switched
the translation from "THUMOS meaning indignation" in Romans 2:8 to "ORGAY meaning indignation" in Revelation 14:10!! This is so misleading
because it denies the truth of Rom.2:4-5 that "LONG-ANGER" precedes
God's "WRATH". It is the wine of His ANGER, not of His wrath, that mixes in the Cup of WRATH ... and then pours out after the Last Plague empties in the air; after the 6th Seal reveals the "DAY of Wrath" has come and after the 7th Trumpet reveals the HOUR of "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.6:16-17; Rev.16:17-19; Rev.11:15-18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

Anger and Wrath

Lacy,

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In English they can be synonomous phrases ("words"). It seems like you are working an eschatological angle that, although it might be there, is not at all helped by your rummaging in Greek. (Besides, the mantra around here is that "no doctrine is affected" by the MVs.)
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Are you claiming that God's THUMOS ("indignation") is just a synonym with His ORGAY ("wrath" ... even though the KJV GREEK TEXT states that "THUMOS mixes full strength with His ORGAY"? Rev.14:10. Why is it that the KJ Greek Text mixes THUMOS "full strength in His Cup of ORGAY" and only then pours out its deadly wine in the Cup of Thumos and Orgay?? Rev.14:10; Rev.16:19. According to Rom.2:8, God's Thumos and His Orgay are combined for the unrighteous; and you see this as "my semantics"???

Why is it that God's THUMOS continues as "long-suffering" (macro-thumia)
until the "Day of Wrath" (ORGAY) comes as stated in Rom.2:4-5? Do you not agree with Jesus on the "Day of Wrath" (Orgay) comimg at the 6th Seal in the days "after the great tribulation"?? Is it mere semantics that the 7 Plagues "complete God's Thumos" (Greek) and not His Orgay??? Rev.15:1.

Don't you see the sudden and climactic change from God's "long-standing anger" (makro-thumia; #3115) to that of His eternal wrath (orgay; #3709) or do you not know that "God is willing to show His WRATH and make His power known (only) after bearing with MUCH long-suffering (Latin) the vessels of WRATH fitted for destruction"?? Rom.9:22. In your semantics, do you ignore the teaching of Scripture that only God's WRATH (ORGAY) brings eternal destruction in Hell ... and only when His Thumos and Long-Thumia reach exhaustion??? Rev.14:10-12; Rom.9:22; 2 Pet.3:9.

I am sorry that, in your anxiety to defend the "tradition of men", held since Plato, that "God cannot be subjected to anger" (THUMOS) unless it is translated as "Indignation", the guilty party in this case is not those who translated the original word itself; but refers to their linguistics based on their REFUSAL to even one time translate THUMOS as "ANGER"!!!

It's not our doctrine that is affected; but the failed recognition of what produced the "philosophy and vain deceit" (Col.2:8) regarding God's character in Rev.14:10 where they "inverted" the meaning of thumos and orgay ... transmitting to us the false teaching that we must not attribute
to God the human emotion of "anger"; while at the same time He can be subjected to "indignation" on the basis of the same Greek word THUMOS!

To this day Plato's false philosophy, adopted by Church Fathers, distorts the doctrine that God's "anger and wrath" will occur only on the Day Christ comes with ALL the Saints! They rendered makro-thumos" by the Latin "longsuffering" to avoid making God subject to "long-anger"!! Then they changed the meaning of Thumos to "Indignation" (Rom.2:8) or even to "Wrath" (Rev.14:10) when it is time for God's Anger-Induced-Wrath!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

Anger and Wrath

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Actually, we are "hung-up" on the assumption that the meaning of
Thumos and Orgay have changed meaning and by assuming they are
synonyms! The only way they became "synonymous" was thru the
interpretation that THUMOS means "wrath" (Rev.14:10,19; 5:1,7; 16:1)
but that it must never mean "ANGER"!! The word ORGAY is twice mis-translated as "anger" in the NT where the translation of these two words is "inverted" (Eph.4:31; Col.3:8); but THUMOS is never translated as
"anger"!! Finally, where it really counts in the defining moment when God's Anger turns to Wrath, ORGAY is rendered as "Indignation" and THUMOS is rendered as "Wrath" (instead of "indignation" as in Rom.2:8) and there lies the "confusion"!!! Rev.14:10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

Anger and Wrath

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But the translators DID know Greek! They knew it so well that they had to "devise" a method to avoid translating THUMOS as "anger" and thus break the taboo against attributing "anger" to God!! This is not a "secret" of mine but may be found under the definition of "anger" in the Dictionary of the Apostolic Church published in 1917!!!

You don't need me and my Greek! You need to explain why THUMOS was
not only never translated as "anger," but why the translators INVERTED
the translation of these two words so as to protect the "tradition" handed down from Plato thru the Early Church Fathers who translated makro-thumia as "long-suffering" rather than "long-anger"! They inverted the
translations in Eph.4:31; Col.3:8 and Rev.14:10!! But they didn't need to invert the translation in Rom.2:8 where it is obvious, from Rom.2:4-5, that God's "long-anger" must be changed to "wrath" before His "indignation" turnts to "wrath"!!!

Lacy, you are using the same tactics to distort my view, accusing me:

"You think that the KJV reveals God as incapable (or unwilling) to show and express anger, vengence, wrath, indignation (English definition, not your personal definition), etc. I'm afraid you need to look again".

God reveals all these things; but He does not reveal His wrath (orgay)
until the Plagues "complete His anger; His thumos"! The KJV could have
said "the Plagues complete His indignation" but they neither complete nor contain His wrath!! The "Cup of God's combined Anger and Wrath" does not pour out its deadly wine until AFTER the 7th Trumpet announces that "God's wrath has come" and the Last Plague empties in the air!!!

This is not MY doctrine but the expose' of the "vain tradition of men" who refused to acknowledge God is affected by the human experience of "anger"!! They were "hung up" on what is now the English word "ANGER"; and still the Greek word THUMOS ... mistranslating it in two places to avoid linguistically translating thumos as "anger" EVEN with respect to us humans!!! Eph.4:31; Col.3:8.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

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My dear friend, please tell me why nearly every Christian will tell you that God's anger and wrath mean "virtually the same thing"! Already, on this thread, that common view has been expressed!! The reason for this is the "vain tradition of men" handed down since our Early Church Fathers which
denies that God should be presented as One affected by human anger!!!

I propose that, because of the reaction against the antithesis between anger and wrath (as declared by Plato and Origen), we have accepted them as synonymous and LOST the understanding that makes THUMOS and ORGAY in total conflict! God's THUMOS alone makes Him unwilling that any should perish BUT that will no longer be operative in the case of those who "disobey the Gospel ON THE DAY Christ comes in flaming fire to take vengeance upon them"!! His ORGAY will be quick and total and eternal ... without mercy on His part toward the unrepentant and without excuse on the part of those who "blaspheme His name while their tongues rot in their mouths"!!!

The most devastating consequence of God's wrath, described in Rev. 14:10-12, occurs only when "God's THUMOS "mixes full strength IN the Cup of His ORGAY" ... with Hell the destiny of unrepentant Beast-woshipers! The KJV and most Bibles "invert" the translation to reflect
their apparent ignorance of the terrible consequences of God's wrath!! God's anger-induced-wrath pours out on all "the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" AFTER Seal Six reveals the Day of Wrath has come, AFTER the 7th Trumpet proclaims His appointed (kairos) time for wrath has come and AFTER the 7th Plague empties in the air"!!! Rev.16:17-21.

Each one of the words you list above come from the "mis-translation" of one or the other of these two Greek words into English! And from failure to recognize that God's makro-THUMOS has kept them from being "mixed together" until the Day of Wrath on those who disobey the Gospel!! There will be an end to His wrath for His former people ON THAT DAY!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

Anger and Wrath

Friends,

I must assure you that, IMO, the NKJV is most excellent among many!

For those who are interested, I should point out that, even in Isa.13:9,13,
the KJ translators also switched (inverted) the translation of THUMOS and ORGAY to honor the "vain tradition of men" since Plato taught that "anger must never be ascribed to God"! Origen honored Plato's philosophy even by acknowledging the antithesis of these two words!! Augustine and early Church Fathers refrained from translating makro-thumia as "long-anger", choosing rather to use the Latin "long-suffering" which, BTW, must continue until the Day of Wrath!!!

God's Wrath (ORGAY) will not be exercised against unrepentant unbelievers prior to the DAY Christ comes to be "glorified in the saints
and to be admired in all who believer"! WHY? Because "all those who
believe ON THAT DAY (including ALL Israel) will be saved!! There is no
escape for those who continue to "blaspheme God"; yet during the
4th and 5th Plagues of God's ANGER, these wicked men have the OPTION
to repent ... while the days of salvation remain!!! Rev.16:9-11.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

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My dear friend, you have missed the point entirely! I prefer the KJV and NKJV over all others and do all my studies in the Greek TEXT used by the
translators in the 1600s!! The problem is NOT one of comparing words that mean the same to US; but of the total antithesis that exists to this day in that TEXT itself; but which has been hidden from us because the "tradition of men" disallowed the translation of THUMOS as an expression of God's ANGER!!! See The Dictionary of the Apostolic Church.

It appears, in Revelation, that THUMOS and ORGAY mean the same since the translators rendered THUMOS as "wrath" more times than they rendered ORGAY as "wrath"; but why did they NEVER translate THUMOS as "anger" if they are synonymous? The fact is, they refused to translate
THUMOS as "anger" because of the "vain tradition" (Col.2:8) that this word cannot be descriptive of God's character!! An incriminating example of this is Col.3:8 where, even with respect to humans, they translated THUMOS as "wrath" instead of "anger" to be consistent with their "vain tradition" handed down from Plato thru the Church Fathers!!!

My supreme example of their "inconsistency" was to find they translated
THUMOS as "wrath" being "mixed with God's ORGAY which means "wrath"!
This waters down the terrible horror of the HOUR of God's wrath as being merely an example of His "anger"!! The "wine of God's anger" becomes deadly when God's "THUMOS mixes full strength in His Cup of wrath (ORGAY)" ... when His "long-anger" (makro-thumos) is exhuasted ON THE DAY Christ comes to:

One: Destroy the Destroyers of Earth and all who refuse to repent!
Two: Be Glorified in ALL the Saints!! 2 Thess.1:10.
Three: Be Admired by all who (come to) Believe (present ACTIVE indicative) ON THAT VERY DAY"!!!

Like all the other responses to the main question, "Why did the translators never translate THUMOS as anger", your post also ignores the facts!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

God's Anger and Wrath

robycop3,

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With all due respect, Mr. Miller, THIS IS SILLY! While I absolutely HATE the KJVO myth & fight it tooth & nail, I am NOT seeking to debunk the KJV nor discourage its use. If YOU are, I suggest you find some much-more-solid grounds.
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I find it quite common, in trying to refute another's argument, the attempt is made to besmirch his treatment of God's Holy Word! I affirmed from the start that my primary study tool is the Greek text of the KJV!! But you have not admitted to your guilt in seeking to disparage the points made!!!

The NASB, and also the promoted version of Holman's Bible as the text for the SBC, may have broken the "tradition" handed down from Plato, thru early Church Fathers, that God must not be thought of as subject to the human emotion of "anger"! The key text for the "mixing" of His "anger and wrath" together on the Day of Wrath was inverted to that of "mixing" His "wrath in the Cup of Indigation" by the KJ translators to avoid the use of "anger"!! But the above two versions accept the use of "anger" as an attribute of God (and, in the case of Holman's version) end up with "fierce anger" taking the place of "wrath" on the "DAY of God's and the Lamb's wrath"!!! Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15.

So what's the big deal? The above two versions still translate Thumos as "wrath" (Rev.14:10) not only ON THE DAY OF WRATH, but during the 7 last Plagues of God's makro-thumia (long-anger; longsuffering)! This mis- translation continues to act as a false basis for a Pre-Trib Rapture ... as if the great tribulation is a time of God's vindictive and punitive "wrath"!! While Thumos and Orgay are both translated as "wrath," Orgay does not literally go into effect until the "Day Christ comes in glory to destroy the wicked, to be glorified in the saints and to be admired by all who (come to believe; present active indicative) ON THAT DAY"!!! 2 Thess.1:10.

You may not care that you tried to discredit my integrity in the Word, but
you must acknowledge the present translations of "orgay" in Revelation as "anger" more often than as "anger"; and the mis-translation of the Plagues
as "completing God's wrath" is not in accordance with Rom.2:4-5 where His "long-suffering continues until the DAY of God's wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" ... even in the Holman Bible!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

God's Anger and Wrath

robycop3,

Quote:
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With all due respect, Mr. Miller, THIS IS SILLY! While I absolutely HATE the KJVO myth & fight it tooth & nail, I am NOT seeking to debunk the KJV nor discourage its use. If YOU are, I suggest you find some much-more-solid grounds.
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Sir, a week ago I closed my response to this quote by stating:

"You must acknowledge the present translations of "orgay" in Revelation as "anger" more often than as "anger"; and the mis-translation of the Plagues as "completing God's wrath" is not in accordance with Rom.2:4-5 where His "long-suffering continues until the DAY of God's wrath".

Here I need to correct myself! I need to clarify that we find "thumos"
more often translated as "wrath" in Revelation than we find "orgay" translated as "wrath". The incorrect rendering of "thumos" as "wrath" leads to the false conclusion that God's "wrath is completed" in the 7 last plagues!! The correct translation, as found in The New Jerusalem Bible,
is that the 7 last Plagues "complete (exhaust) God's anger"!!!

When the Last Plague empties in the air, the Martyrs enter the Temple in heaven for the Tribunal of Seal 7 and the 7th Trumpet reveals that "God's wrath has come" ... and the appointed time for resurrection and rewards to the prophets and saints and also for retribution upon those who are gathered to Armageddon after destroying 2 billion people in the 6th Trumpet. No one enters the Temple until the last Vial Plague empties. Rev.11:18; Rev.15:8.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:

 

God's Anger and Wrath

I've always considered myself to be "slow and rather dense"!

I also know I am too serious-minded!!

If I finally get the implication of "long time, no see", I'll laugh with you!!!

Mel