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Featured God's desire

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 11, 2022.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does God desire all people (1 Timothy 2:4) to be saved unconditionally, or only according to His redemption plan?

    Since all people are not saved, for example the person headed for swift destruction in 2 Peter 2:1, then God's desire is not unconditionally applied, but conditionally applied, to those whose faith in Christ He credits as righteous faith.

    In order to make this possibility of salvation available to all humanity, Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Hence disbelief is a sin (if God desired only some to be saved, those left out would not be under condemnation for rejecting what was never intended for them).
     
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  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Hence disbelief is the unforgivable sin. You won't be forgiven by God if you do not believe in the Son.
     
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  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    If God desired everyone to be saved then His will is not 100% being done.

    If His perfect will is not being done, He is not the God of the Bible
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not at all. God is not a child.

    Scripture says that God desires all be saved.

    Think of it this way, Scripture tells us that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. This does not mean God will, in His pleasure, refrain from exercising judgment.

    If we ignore one passage because it does not suit our theology, then we have to ignore another, and another, and . . .

    God is not dependent on our theology. We don't have to understand God's desire that all be saved, or God's desire that the wicked not be destroyed, but we should accept it as written in God's Word.
     
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    *1 Timothy 1:12-17*

    I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    *1 Timothy 2:1-7*
    First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

    When you read the entire letter, you see the work of God in choosing people from all humanity. The context makes this obvious therefore clinging to one sentence creates false doctrines.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    God did choose a people out of all humanity. That does not cobtradict God desiring all repent and be saved. Only if you read into the passage can you negate God's desire that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of truth.

    The problem with reading into Scripture is that you cannot stop with just one passage. You'd have to deny Jesus as the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, God taking no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, God desiring all of Israel to repent (which they didn't), etc.

    You end up with a "bible" of your own creation (like the "Jefferson Bible".
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since God's will is for all people to be saved according to His redemption plan, His will is being 100% done. :)
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Psalms 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him.'
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked? Or do you believe God will forgo judgment?

    Obviously we are talking about different kinds of desires. Think of Christ who desired not to be crucified, yet desired to be obedient to the Father, even unto death on a cross.

    The world, and some Christians, make God out to be a simplistic fairy tale only known of in myth. But perhaps His ways really are higher than ours. Maybe we, not God, are the simpletons.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    That is not what God says, but it is Vanology.

    It is God's will that all whom God has given to Jesus will be saved. God has chosen people from all walks, all statuses, all nations, tribes, and tongues.

    God has not chosen all humans universally, and that is not what Paul is saying in 1 Timothy. We know this because of what Paul writes about himself and others in chapter 1.
     
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, read the verses before verse 4 and you see how Paul is using the word "all."

    If you recall the letter to the Romans, you will note that Paul takes an extraordinary amount of time to breakdown the prejudice of Gentiles toward Jews and Jews toward Gentiles to show them that they are all justified by God's gift of faith to them. There is no separating line. We note that Paul never expresses a universalism. Instead Paul expresses a unity of believers from all nations, tribes, and tongues. I am not "reading that in" to 1 Timothy 2. It's right there in the verses before vs 4.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another mindless "taint so" claim without any citation.

    God's word says God desires all people to be saved. Falselogy says this verse does not mean what it says but means God desires all kinds of people to be saved. However that is not what scripture actually says.

    Note that Falselogy consistently charges others with what they do to make scripture to no effect.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have read. God desires all come to salvation for Christ is the Ransom for all men, the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

    This does not negate the fact that God has a chosen people.
     
  15. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    What about those whom God wants saved but never believe?

    that means God is not perfect in every way
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    How so? God desires that all men be saved means God is perfect.
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If a person does not believe "into Him" does God want him or her saved? Nope!

    1) Scripture, Christ died as a ransom for all, Falselogy claims Christ died as a ransom for all sorts of people.

    2) Scripture, Christ became the propitiation (the means of salvation) for the whole world, Falselogy claims Christ became the propitiation for the whole elect world.

    3) Scripture, no one seeks God. Falselogy no one seeks God at any time.

    Theology 101 says stick with what scripture says, not what it might possibly allow. God is perfect according to scripture, Falselogy says God is not perfect if God is not the God of Falselogy.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God is perfect, yet not all men are saved. This is a contradiction that is not argued well by your position.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If a person does not believe "into Him" does God want him or her saved? Nope! Salvation is 100% by God, 0% by people.

    1) Scripture, Christ died as a ransom for all, Falselogy claims Christ died as a ransom for all sorts of people.

    2) Scripture, Christ became the propitiation (the means of salvation) for the whole world, Falselogy claims Christ became the propitiation for the whole elect world.

    3) Scripture, no one seeks God. Falselogy no one seeks God at any time.

    Theology 101 says stick with what scripture says, not what it might possibly allow. God is perfect according to scripture, Falselogy says God is not perfect if God is not the God of Falselogy.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You have significant contradictions in you
    Where does scripture demand that you must "believe into Christ Jesus?"

    Van, I am not responsible for your incapacity to allow all of scripture to interpret one sentence.
    Unfortunately I see a handful of people here who cling to one sentence and create an entire doctrine from it, claiming that the one sentence (void of context) means a universal all. The problem you refuse to admit is that your Vanology therefore contradicts itself all over the place since you deny universalism yet embrace it at the same time. You work hard then to try cover up the contradictions with obfuscation.
     
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