God's knowledge debate

Van, I don't dismiss scripture. When God says he searches the heart, I believe it.

And you are correct, he did say he declares the end from the beginning. That is what happens when you quote from memory, I should have verified what the scripture said before I posted that. My error.

 

Winman when scripture says that God searches the heart what do you understand that to mean? Is that not saying He knows the intents of a person at that moment in time?

 

Not relevant really. God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause) all things or not doesn't make a difference really. I say this because God can know all things and not ordain something. I'm not saying that is true, but it's possible. God is also eternal, so all knowledge is going to be as well.


And as I stated earlier, I'm using the passages together. I never form a doctrine on a single passage. The Bible is clear that God knows all. It amazes me that some will deny this. There are a couple that realize the tension in Scripture, but don't deny God's omniscience. That's different from denying the biblical truth of God's omniscience.

 

Of course how can you declare something you don't know

 

OK I think, but what about those two questions I asked? Also now I have another question. If "God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause" what is ordaining to you?

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

In all honesty there seems to me to be many tensions in scripture, although not contradictory, but definitely many things in juxtaposition with one another. What say you?

 

Not relevant. This is about God's knowledge, not God ordaining. Don't want to deviate off topic.

 

I am saying I am not sure. The scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and who should betray him. I take this to be foreknowledge of who will believe.

At the same time you have David praying for God to search him to know his heart, and to try him and know his mind (Psa 139:23-24). This sounds in time. I would think David being a prophet would understand how this works.

There must be some way these statements are true and do not contradict each other, but I do not know the answer.

 

So then tell me how is this knowledge? Is He looking down through history or is he ordaining (causing) everything so as to know? Or some other way, please explain.

 

Not even close to truth. You've been given sound Scriptural evidence.

Whenever we see a passage that "seems" to deny Him being all knowing, when we know His "Omniscience" is an eternal truth, then we need to take another look at what was said and interpret it accordingly.

Scripture doesn't contradict. When God says He knows all things, that is a dogmatic statement of fact, it takes priority over other obscure passages that may seem to deny this truth.

To deny omniscience is to deny the truth of Scripture, and come up with a version of God that is not Scriptural.

I find it amazing that so many want to tear down the attributes of God so readily and hastily, and in turn exalt the "glory" and ability of man to a high and unscriptural level.

- Peace

 

I'm not going to discuss the how on this thread. Start another one if you want.

This is funny

Obviously truth telling isn't Van's strong point. We have given very clear "sound evidence from Scripture." Van instead pretends that we only offer philosophy. This isn't true. We have given very, very clear Scripture that God knows all, he knowledge has no limits(not knowing something is a limit...)
The rest has been answered, but Van would rather ignore the Scripture at stick with his flawed reasoning.

There is no reason for any of us to discuss this with him. Once a person rejects the Scripture passages, there is no further reason to discuss it.

P4t, you said it well when you spoke of clear vs obscure. When the Bible says that God knows everything, I don't say.."well, God doesn't really mean that." When God says He doesn't remember our sins anymore, he didn't say that the knowledge of the sins is lost. he said he "doesn't bring to mind" our sins. That's what remember means. Now I know, because in Abraham's time, he had proved himself. God is eternal. So if you are going to argue that God didn't know before Abraham did it, then you must also argue that God isn't eternal.

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

nuff said.

 

IF God does not really know all things that can possible be known, how can He even be considered God?

What wouldn't He know per your theology?

can He get surprised, learn new things as h goes on?

is He based in Time, as we are?

How can he predict all future events, especially Revelation, IF He doesn't know eveything?

How can we have confidence in a God who is limited?

HOW is this view different than Open Theism? they say God "learns as he goes!"

 

Part of their problem is in that they misunderstand words, meanings and contexts.

They take a more obscure text, and proof-text that to the supplanting of known truths. There are groups that use this same methodology, and it is erroneous to do so. I am not saying these are of these groups, only that they use the same methodology, which is faulty. Many unscriptural teachings have their roots in this methodology.

Somehow, through much study and teaching, we must help our fellow believers at the local church level to get beyond this.

There are too many passages that deal with and prove God as "all-knowing." Some attempt to reduce Him to our level as though we can teach Him anything. We cannot.

Also, check out this link, it's short and sheds a little light on this misnomer:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godallover.html

- Peace and Grace to His

 

Brother, thanks for the kind gracious words.

Don't let those who have rejected your excellent biblical apology rattle you. The typical response even after showing adequate evidence has been employed and will continue to be "their out" no matter how many times you present it.

We serve an Omniscient God; "all-knowing."

- Peace

 

Could you qualify who "their" is?

 

There are limitations even to what God can do!
cannot save any one apart from Cross of Christ, cannot commit Sin, cannot undo His divine attributes, as there are in perfect unison!

 

In Psalm 73:11 we read : They say, "How would God know? Does the Most High know anything? (2011 NIV)

In Spurgeon's Treasury of David he comments thusly:"Thus dare the ungodly speak. They flatter themselves that their oppressions and persecutions are unobserved of heaven. If there be a God,is he not too much occupied with other matters to know what is going on upon this world? So they console themselves if judgments be threatened. Boasting of their own knowledge,they yet dare to ask, 'Is there knowledge in the most High?' Well were they called foolish. A God,and not know! This is a solecism in language,a madness of thought. Such,however, is the acted insanity of the graceless theists of this age; theists in name,because avowed infidelity is disreputable,but atheists in practice beyond all question." ( Vol.3,pages 341,342)

 

That is because you know your assumption is incorrect.