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God's Preservation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by jshurley04, May 21, 2007.

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  1. I believe that preservation ended for the English speakers with the KJV.

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. I believe that preservation is actually continual inspiration.

    1 vote(s)
    3.0%
  3. I believe that preservation is an active process of God through the efforts of man at His direction.

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  4. What is preservation?

    1 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. I believe that perservation is completed by God for the whole world through the KJV only.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I beleive that preservation is somthing other than one of the listed choices.

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
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  1. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    The same problems occurred when the thoughts were maligned with modern terminologies that conflicted with the harmony of Scripture when the 1611 KJV was translated. As I said before, there can be NO translation from one language to another with 100% accuracy of words. The preservation is in the thought of what was originally written in Scripture, not in the specific words of any particular translation. Translation of words is not an exact science since languages differ in various ways. Salamander, you place your faith in the words when it is the thought and the intent of Scripture God has preserved. Ya got your "shoes on the wrong feet" Salamander...
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes, some people act as if all the language changes, etc. has taken God unawares, forgetting that GOD CREATED THE LANGUAGE TO BEGIN WITH, and that the changes are allowed/caused strictly by Him. After all, one of Jesus' titles is THE WORD.

    Yes, it's true that no language can be translated 100& into any other. Each language has its own subtleties & nuances that are virtually impossible to express in another language with the same clarity. Thus, we see translations of a secular work that read quite differently to a bilingual person who knows both the original language and the target translation language.

    However, God's word is more important than all the other writings on earth put together. Knowing this, we seek to understand it as fully as possible. As God knows all the facts about all the languages, and He IS omniscient, nothing is lost to Him.

    Gos WANTS His word to be read & understood by as many people as possible. Thus, He has caused it to be translated into over 2400 languages, & counting. He has even caused translations to be made into languages that have no written forms so it can be read aloud to the users of such languages with as much accuracy as possible by those who know both the target language and another language that has a written form.

    I believe GOD is fully behind the makings of all those translations in all those languages, and I also believe He is behind the making of newer versions in languages such as English, which have had His word in them for centuries, as advances in the languages leave the older versions behind.

    However, I believe that no valid version has lost its validity due to language changes and the making of versions in current language styles. And I CERTAINLY don't believe we are stuck with only old versions whose language is now archaic or largely obsolete. That notion is entirely MAN-MADE, with nothing from GOD to show that it's HIS will.
     
  3. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    In my earlier post I did substantiate :laugh: the fact that not all written words from the Lord are in our Bible. The proof of other words given by the inspiration of God is in scripture itself.

    But here are more examples from the Old Testament: Nathan, a true prophet of God, wrote a book. Notice 1 Chronicles 29:26-29 (KJV) --
    Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel.
    And the time that he reigned over Israel [was] forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three [years] reigned he in Jerusalem.
    And he died in a good old age, full of days, riches, and honour: and Solomon his son reigned in his stead.
    Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they [are] written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,​
    We seem to have the book(s) of Samuel, but not Nathan. Are we prepared to say that simply because Nathan's book is not in our Bible that it was not inspired writing at that time? Notice also 2 Chronicles 9:29 (KJV) --
    Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, [are] they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?​
    In addition to Nathan, Ahijah was also a true prophet of God; notice 1 Kings 15:29 (KJV) --
    And it came to pass, when he reigned, [that] he smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Ahijah the Shilonite:​
    And apparently Iddo was a true prophet of God; notice 2 Chronicles 13:22 (KJV) --
    And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, [are] written in the story of the prophet Iddo.
    Gad was also a true prophet of the Lord; notice 2 Chronicles 29:25 (KJV) --
    And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for [so was] the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.​
    I cannot dismiss that these good men wrote the words of the Lord that they served (there are also other proof verses for these prophets).

    Salamander asked, how can we know there are words of God without proof? Where is the plain and clear prophecy cited by Matthew 2:23 in our Old Testament? --
    And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.​

    Here are examples from the New Testament: Paul refers to an earlier epistle to the Corinthians which is undisclosed to us. From the book we call the First Letter to the Corinthians 5:9 (KJV) --
    I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:​
    Paul was inspired by God to communicated doctrine and truth to the Corinth congregation in letters, of which, God has chosen to share only two with us. Now notice Colossians 4:16 (KJV) --
    And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the [epistle] from Laodicea.​
    Clearly, these were written words since they were to "read" them. Would you deny that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the believers in Laodicea? The proof of written words of God outside the canon is testified by scripture.
     
    #43 franklinmonroe, May 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2007
  4. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Don't tell me what I think. Ask me what I know.

    When God spoke this universe into existence, are those words written? Yes.

    When God spoke the way unto righteousness, are those words written? Yes.
    Amen! As it is in heaven, God wills it to be so on earth. ( or did Jesus "lie"?)​
    The Psalmist was speaking by inspiration of the written word.

    Yep, and it's God's will for the things on earth to be as it is in Heaven.

    You're speaking as a man from only a man's standpoint.
     
  5. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I see you never got over your first venture in the employment world working fo Dairy Queen!:laugh:

    Oh, sorry, Ed, you did say "gonna split, and not banana split.:type:
     
  6. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    It is what the words convey to the thought, that is 100% God's doing. If you'd like to keep placing the abilities of our Lord in the aspect of man's ability you'll always be limiting God and therefore WRONG!

    God can and does speak accurately in any language, or is God in this "box" of only three langauges as you're insisting upon? Not!

    God didn't "die" at the onslaught of Aramaic or Greek.
     
  7. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Are you attributing the confusion of tongues to the devices of men? men change words, God is not confused nor the author of it.

    How is it you know that then, give us an example of this dilemma without being 100% accurate to espouse your presumption?

    Yep, sounds just like preservation to me! Not multiple and conflicting versions that don't say expressly the same thing in any language.

    So you're saying God is limited to what man is able to accomplish? What you said is utter confusion.

    I would proclaim that God wants people to KNOW Him through the preaching of His written word so they that believe might be saved, and until they are saved they cannot know and understand the word of God.

    Stop trying to farm with the mule in front of the plow.

    Advances? :laugh: Man is degenerate and not "getting closer to God" as a whole, your premise is wrong, again.

    Then how is it you depend upon the archaic of all archaics in the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic? Don't say by definition, roby, you'd be hanging yourself, again.

    If you want to know what anyone has to say, become familiar with what they are saying, otherwise use a dictionary, then you can become familiar with what they said.

    When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
     
  8. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    And all those words are fouind in the Canon of Scripture that belong in the Canon of Scripture, else they were laid aside and not included.

    You sound so educated but fail to understand the Canonization of Scripture.

    Next thing we know you'll be quoting Polycarp, the Book of Mary, the Book of Thomas, or God FORBID! the book of judas.:BangHead:
     
  9. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Yes, that is true! I never said anything different. What is found in our Bibles are all the words that God intends us to have now on earth. But our Bible is not always what is being described by "words of God" or "word of the Lord" in the scriptures.

    I have attempted to demonstrate this with my posts in this thread:
    1) the scriptures ('script' meaning written) are not the only words of God, (more were spoken than were ever written)
    2) all the words of God are preserved in Heaven
    3) all the words of God are not contained in the canonical books (some have been "laid aside")

    These truths are scary for some folks. I think part of the problem is that it means that the verses used for doctrine of the "preservation" of God's words might not exclusively refer to the canonized scripture that they hold in their hands. I cannot help that; the Bible says what is says. But do not be afraid, God knows what He is doing.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Salamander: //Are you attributing the confusion of tongues to the devices
    of men? men change words, God is not confused nor the author of it.//

    Tee Hee, you are contradicting yourself.
    If confusion of tongues is to not be attributed to the
    devices of men, then God is the author of it.
    Which would you have it be?

    Someone also is misundersting this scripture:

    1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For God is not the authour of confusion,
    but of peace, as in all Churches of the Saints.

    Their misunderstanding of this scripture does NOT support
    their contention. So again, their contention fails.

    'confusion' here in the KJV is the opposite of 'peace'
    not the opposite of 'understanding' which your conclusion
    needs. Use the Bible to understand the Bible!

    Here is the Strong's description of the Hebrew term
    translated in 1611 with the words "the author of confusion"
    Note the complete absence of the modern meaning (2006) of
    the word 'confusion' which is 'misunderstanding'.
    Sorry, someone is trying to put new wine into old skins -
    it just doesn't work :(

    Strong's
     
  11. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Doesn't "scare" me at all, if I can say that without some one thinking I am attacking somebody:rolleyes:

    The reason those "words" didn't make it into the Canon is due to the fact they weren't viewed as words of God.

    You used the words "might not" as if you're not completely certain.

    There I go again, now somebody "please" report my post, again.

    The "books" you have referred to are never said to be the word of God. Just because something contains portions of the word of God does not the word of God make. God is not "in part", neither do we find His word only in part combined with other words.

    That is what I AM saying, and NOTHING else!m ( for those Bro, Franklin, who deem my replies to be "attacks" ) None has ever been an attack against you or anyone else by my intention.

    All I consider we are doing is discussing thoughts about the Bible, nothing personal.
     
  12. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    God did author the confusion of tongues, exactly my point, man did not, but he's sure trying in these last days.

    Um, Bro. ed, understanding IS peace.

    Better check it out a little further, all the words are synonomous. The "new wine'" may be fermented in the case of introducing any contradictions.

    Can I say that without seeming like I am "attacking" another poster????????
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by robycop3
    Sometimes, some people act as if all the language changes, etc. has taken God unawares, forgetting that GOD CREATED THE LANGUAGE TO BEGIN WITH, and that the changes are allowed/caused strictly by Him. After all, one of Jesus' titles is THE WORD.

    Are you attributing the confusion of tongues to the devices of men? men change
    words, God is not confused nor the author of it.[/i]

    Howdya KNOW that? After all GOD created every language, didn't He? Methinx you're GUESSING here.

    Quote:
    Yes, it's true that no language can be translated 100& into any other. Each language has its own subtleties & nuances that are virtually impossible to express in another language with the same clarity. Thus, we see translations of a secular work that read quite differently to a bilingual person who knows both the original language and the target translation language.

    How is it you know that then, give us an example of this dilemma without being 100% accurate to espouse your presumption?

    Easy enuff! We just had a discussion about 1 Timothy 6:10, where there are several possible valid English renderings of the Greek. Please read that thread carefully.

    Quote:
    However, God's word is more important than all the other writings on earth put together. Knowing this, we seek to understand it as fully as possible. As God knows all the facts about all the languages, and He IS omniscient, nothing is lost to Him.

    Yep, sounds just like preservation to me! Not multiple and conflicting versions that don't say expressly the same thing in any language.

    But ya have nothing but GUESSWORK to back up your assertion. And I see you bring up that ole "conflicting versions" hooey again. Time and again, it's been establidhed that many, MANY greek or hebrew words/ phrases have multiple meanings in English. But your embracing of a certain untrue doctrine prevents your allowing for that.

    Quote:
    "Gos" (uh, that's "God") WANTS His word to be read & understood by as many people as possible. Thus, He has caused it to be translated into over 2400 languages, & counting. He has even caused translations to be made into languages that have no written forms so it can be read aloud to the users of such languages with as much accuracy as possible by those who know both the target language and another language that has a written form.
    So you're saying God is limited to what man is able to accomplish? What you said is utter confusion.

    I would proclaim that God wants people to KNOW Him through the preaching of His written word so they that believe might be saved, and until they are saved they cannot know and understand the word of God.

    But faith comes by hearing, and hearing, by the WOG. An unsaved person must understand enuff of it to realize what one must do to be saved. Remember, the HEARD word comes from the WRITTEN word.

    Stop trying to farm with the mule in front of the plow.

    Stop trying to drive a Jet-Ski thru a meadow.

    Quote:
    I believe GOD is fully behind the makings of all those translations in all those languages, and I also believe He is behind the making of newer versions in languages such as English, which have had His word in them for centuries, as advances in the languages leave the older versions behind.

    Advances? Man is degenerate and not "getting closer to God" as a whole, your premise is wrong, again.

    No, YOU are, by not staying on the subject, which was the making of new Bible versions under God's influence. You're trying to avoid that subject by switching over to the spiritual condition of man in general. That hippo won't fly here.

    Quote:
    However, I believe that no valid version has lost its validity due to language changes and the making of versions in current language styles. And I CERTAINLY don't believe we are stuck with only old versions whose language is now archaic or largely obsolete. That notion is entirely MAN-MADE, with nothing from GOD to show that it's HIS will.


    Then how is it you depend upon the archaic of all archaics in the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic? Don't say by definition, roby, you'd be hanging yourself, again.

    You're just SO-O-o-o hung up on a false doc! If ANY Bible translation, old or new, in English, French, or Slobbovian, doesn't follow its ancient sources, then it aint a valid translation, but a paraphrase.

    And again, ya jump off the track by mentioning the ancient languages. Like it or not, those are the languages used by those whom God chose to write His Scriptures. And, same as today, they were apparently written in the language style of the day, same as they're now written. Like it or not, God did NOT retire in 1611; He still furnishes His word in current English, same as He does in current French, Chinese(a new Chinese version was just completed), Russian, Polish, Waironi(a South American tribe) & you've seen from John of Japan that there are several people working on a coupla new Japanese versions. Just face it...If you're stuck with an older version, that's YOUR choice, not GOD'S...and a POOR choice at that. You're simply NOT taking advantage of all that God has made available to you.


    If you want to know what anyone has to say, become familiar with what they are saying, otherwise use a dictionary, then you can become familiar with what they said.

    Why do that when I have what they said in MY OWN language?

    When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Yes, God said He'd give us all ONE PURE LANGUAGE. Then will the versions controversy be laid to rest. We will ALL have God's word EXACTLY AS HE CHOOSES, ONE LANGUAGE, ONE VERSION in an unchanging pure language.
     
  14. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    You have set up a False Dilema (a fallacy). If we don't agree with your interpretation, then we must accept an undesirable heretical position? No, those two are not our only real choices.

    Of course, Jesus didn't lie; but you have misapplied the words of Christ to support an assertion that is untrue. This is what Jesus really said in Matthew 6:9-13 (KJV) --
    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
    Give us this day our daily bread.
    And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​
    Your statement implies that God already wants everything on Earth to be exactly as it is in Heaven. But Jesus' actual prayer is for whatever is in God plans on Earth to become accomplished; and then He uses Heaven as an example of a place where God's will is done.

    God's "will" is complex; notice 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV) --
    For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    Who will have all men to be saved
    , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​
    We know from other scriptures that NOT all men will be saved, even though God's "will" is that it be so.
     
  15. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I suppose you to think God created the very words which profane His own name?

    Try keeping your "proofs" in one discussion at a time please
    No "hooey" here, Brother, I am solely resting upon the doctrine of the preservation of the word of God, from the word of God.

    Nope, all any person has to do is get under Holy Ghost annointed preaching that mere men look at as foolishness. at least that's what the word of God actually says.

    Don't even have one, I'm talking about hearing PREACHING before one can be saved, at least it's what God chose to save them which believe.



    Yes, I'm finding that another spirit rules over this place and it's NOT of God!

    Just like me, "switching" over to spiritual matters when it concerns the word of God, imagine that!

    G'head, attack God's word, satan has done it since he approached Eve in the form of a serpent!

    I suppose that will suffice the action to have me suspended, but I WILL NOT recant such an arrogant attack on the Bible!

    OK, I see where this is going, roby is THE authority on ALL languages, especially his own

    Introducing impurities into that which is already pure is a direct contradiction and an attack against the Lord's ability to preserve His word.
     
  16. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    No, the books I'm talking about were not considered because they likely had already become lost. There is no record that there was ever a Pauline epistle from Laodicea considered for canonizaton. I am not talking about the Gospel of Judas, etc.

    "Might not" describes others uncertainty.

    Where does it say in the book of Mark, for example, that 'this book is the word of God". Those words don't exist for most of our canonized books of the Bible. Who said Mark was the "word of God"? A council of men? If Paul's letter from Laodicea had survived, I believe it would have been canonized.

    Thank you.

    Agreed. All the readers of my posts will decide if my thoughts are accurate. I came to those thoughts from reading the scripture, which I provided as evidence.
     
  17. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Like so many others of late this thread has become a personal battle instead of a discussion. The text equivalent of screaming has no place in honest discussion.
     
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