"God's Will be Done"

I think praying changes us, not God. Praying brings us into God's will when we seek His will in prayer.

Praying humbles us, causes us to remember who God is, causes us to realize our sin, causes us to realize our need for the Lord, glorifies God, and gives us wisdom.

The ultimate goal of prayer is to see things as God sees them, then our desires change so that they are what God wants for us. This is not our prayers changing God, but God changing us.

 

I am not omniscient, so I do not know the will of God in many situations. Therefore, I ask for God's will to be done because he knows what he is doing even though I do not.

I think the people are just admitting the limits of their knowledge.

People in the scriptures certainly attributed the bad things that happened to them to the will of God. The two most obvious examples being Joseph and Job.

Jesus prayed in the garden that this cup would pass from him and then said not my will but your will be done. When I ask that God's will be done, I am following Jesus' example.

 

I do not know of anyone that uses it as a mask for unbelief. We do not know it all and we are not in control of everything even though we act like we are at times.

 

Sure, but is that based upon Him knowing what we will do or not knowing what we will do? Are you an open theist?

 

Gina,

It seems to me, at least, that you are having problems in (2) areas:

First, understanding God's Will of which there are three factes:

1. God's Sovereign Will: The exercise of His supremacy as Creator over His Creation. God is in control of everything whether we believe in Him or not. The Sovereign Will of God is the easiest to know and fulfill for it encompasses all that comes to past... Where we were born, how we were raised, and who we married. To discover God’s Sovereign Will, you need only look in the past at what has taken place, be it a minute or a millennium ago. All that has taken place has been done according to God’s Sovereign Will.


2. God's Moral Will: God’s Moral Will is His moral instruction revealed in His Law and Scripture. Discovering God’s Moral Will is simply a matter of reading and studying God’s Word, for in it is recorded God’s Will concerning right versus wrong, and good versus evil.


3. God's Individual Will: The Scriptures do not clearly teach that God has a specific detailed plan for our lives that dictates only one choice for every decision we make. Instead, God gives us the freedom to choose, as long as our choices fall within His Will revealed in His Word!

The second issue I see is related to the first... you seem to have a problem with the reality of suffering in the life of believers. Can cancer be a part of God's will? Absolutely! God's plan and purposes are accomplished by things we perceive as being positive and negative. Suffering is not only promised in God's Word, but it is that which grows us in the process of sanctification. It is a part of God's will for me, you, and every other child of God.

We need to define "good" in God's economy, not our own. In the lives of many I have had the privilege of ministering to terminal illness, the loss of a spouse, persecution have been some of the greatest blessings in their lives... for one simple reason... it was that, that drew them closer to the Lord. That is why James tells us to rejoice in suffering. We can pray for recovery and/or release in a given situation, but God may have other plans.

Someone mentioned Jesus' prayer in the Garden prior to His arrest... which is a perfect example. Jesus didn't want to experience what was coming, but He surrendered His will to the Father's will. As Christ's surrenders, so should we.

 

Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
James 4:13-15 KJV

 

Then you're reading their literature, and if you rarely read, then you're listening to the spirit that drives them.

I was hearing and making the arguments you've made 25+ years ago while I was in the heart of Charismania. The misapplication of the "in earth as it is in heaven" phrase of the Lord's Prayer is old hat.

 

I understand what you're saying.

I like how it was said by a friend of mine:

"God does heal all Christians. It's just a matter of timing and location.

He heals some then and there...others, He brings home."

 

My statement was that prayer does not change God, it changes us. I want to be careful here, because we have scripture passages that must be resolved.

First, a number of scripture verses plainly say that God does not change. God himself said he does not change.

For example:
I Sam 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

On the other hand:
James 5:16 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

But:
Ephesians 1:11 ....him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will.

John Piper has some thoughts on how to resolve those apparent contradictions.

Read the whole article here:http://www.fivesolas.com/prov_pra.htm

 

I guess then that it means nothing to 'stand in the gap' or to pray for a lost friend or family member. After all, if there is no affect then why stand in the gap or pray for someone who is lost? Here is where one is lead down the slippery slope to fatalism.

 

Amen to both of you. IMHO, you both make excellent points, but so have others (it's odd, the subject of prayer has been on my mind recently).

Consider the model given us:
After this manner therefore pray ye......Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Mt 6:9,10

I believe if we're not real careful our prayers can tend to be selfish requests rather than in accordance with His will. But thank God, He knows what we need and He knows our infirmity:

And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Ro 8:26,27

I believe that prayer can be an attitude on our part that inwardly, quietly, begs the Spirit to pray for us.

Larry.

 

According to my view it is not an either/or; God having exhaustive foreknowledge does not necessarily lead to Him having predetermined all events. I believe God, in His infinite knowledge and wisdom has allowed for libertarian freedoms in creational design. What you would consider “based” on EF I consider better explained within regard to truth factors and needing more depth than how/what many theologians would commonly choose to define divine foreknowledge through the over simplistic view described by the means of Classical theism.

No, I somewhat line up with/consider a similar logic to that of Molinism with an emphases on the Trinitarian Nature of God concerning exhaustive foreknowledge which contends with that God retains divine providence without hindering man’s volition … it’s complicated, but you... “asked”.

 

Ann,

You took the words right out of my mouth/mind!

As difficult and challenging as it may seem, God caused a man to be born blind so that Christ could be glorified in a teachable moment for the disciples. God does what he pleases, and we can trust that He is righteous, just, and even fair in all His dealings. I am reminded of Isaiah 55.8-9:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.​

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

In the context of this discussion, I find great comfort and peace in those verses. I would also challenge the first sentence of your reply. I would contend that while specific personal sin may not always be a primary cause of personal suffering, sin is still the primary cause... does that make sense. Whether it's heart defects or blindness, those things are realities because of sin in the universe.​

 

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. Likewise for Pauls affliction

 

Even though I do not think prayer changes God's mind (because for God to change his mind he'd either have to have limited knowledge or his plans and/or will are not perfect), we are to pray for the lost, sick, for ourselves, etc.

We do not know what God will do and when we see answers to prayer, we glorify Him. So pray for your lost friend; if he/she becomes saved, then God is glorified. If she/he is not saved, then your prayer may have had some effect on you at least, and helps you to accept God's will. We all pray for things that God apparently says "no" to. We pray anyway.

 

I believe another reason God wants us to pray is because He wants us to rely on Him and not ourselves or others. He wants us to be completely dependent on Him. When we pray we are humbling ourselves before Him and accepting our dependence on Him. It is also an act of love and worship and recognizing that He is our Father and He loves us.

 

Ye have not, because ye ask not. James 4:2