1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

"God's Word" before 1611

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ktn4eg, Dec 9, 2004.

  1. dean198

    dean198 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Henry the eighth and his many wives ring any wedding bells?"

    The roots of the Anglican church date back to the early Celtic church in England, which became associated with Rome following the Saxon invasions, and eventually lost its independence. The clerics in the time of Henry advised him to restore the independency of the church from Rome, which he did (for questionable motives). The Anglican church has followed a middle path between Reformation Protestantism and primitive catholicism, the latter winning over the former following the Restoration, pretty much until the twentieth century when the forces of liberalism tore the church apart.
     
  2. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,517
    Likes Received:
    4
    Who needs TV soap operas when you've got 16th & 17th century European history?

    Henry VIII's first wife, Catherine of Aragon was the daughter of Spain's King Ferdinand & Queen Isabella. Their marriage united the two principal regions of Spain (Castile & Aragon). They completed the "reconquista" of Spain by finally driving out the Islamic Moors in 1492. Later on that same year an Italian named Columbus received government funding to go sailing along with a crew comprised primarily of state prisoners [work release programs for prisoners isn't a modern concept].

    Well, to unite both Spain and England they proposed a marriage of their daughter Catherine to the eldest son of Henry VII (who, kind of like F & I, finally succeeded in re-uniting England by winning the "Wars of the Roses"). And so, the marriage took place in 1501.

    Three problems: 1) This son's name was Arthur (who was only 15 when he was married), not Henry; 2) Five months after his marriage Arthur dies having produced no children and leaving Catherine a widow; and 3) The planned unification of these two Catholic nations cannot now go forward.

    But, wait a minute, in Deut. 25 it says that it's OK for the brother of another who dies childess to raise up children in the name of the deceased brother via the deceased widow. That's it!

    Henry VII dies in 1509, his eldest surviving son, the junior Henry, assumes the throne, and shortly thereafter this 18 YO marries his sister-in-law, and now the unification can once again proceed, assuming that THIS marriage can produce a child.

    Well, it does, but it took 5 years and the child was a daughter named Mary, not a son to carry on the Tudor dynasty. Also during this time period Henry mounts an attack on two important people on the continent: 1) Martin Luther, thus being rewarded by the Pope the title "Defender of the Faith"; and 2) Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (who in 1527 sacks Rome and holds the Pope hostage). Henry's unsuccessful military ventures against Charles V proved costly, and one must keep in mind that all of the rich farmlands controlled by the Catholic monasteries are 100% tax-exempt.

    Henry sought to annul his marriage to Catherine, but the Pope refused to do so. The fact that Catherine was the aunt of his captor Charles V might have had something to do with this too.

    Is everyone still keeping track of this cast of characters? :confused:

    Well, ultimately in 1533 Henry takes matters in his own hands, marries Anne Boleyn, and begins to assume (as titular head of the Church of England) control of those rich monastic lands (via his various nobles who got a handsome commission for replentishing the king's coffers), and so is born an English version of the Roman Catholic Church, with the office of Archbishop of Canterbury serving its religious head.

    Personally, Henry VIII cared little for Protestantism, he merely wanted sanction for his marriage, a church leader that was submissive to him, and that big chunk of prime real estate that'd been off limits to him while the Pope was running the show.

    So far it seems as if old Henry is 3-0. But then his wife Anne messes up five months after their marriage ( :eek: you do the math on that!), and presents him, not with a son, but a daughter named Elizabeth. Three years go by and still no son.

    It's now 1536, Anne is tried for acts of treasonable adultry (as if Henry was any example of marital fidelity :saint: , but, hey, he's the king!) and is executed. One month later Henry marries Jane Seymour (didn't know Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman was that old, did you? Amazing what makeup can do! :cool:). Anyway, she FINALLY gives Henry a son named Edward in 1537.

    Guess that made old Henry fat (Well, you've seen his portraits!), dumb (Guess that depends on who you ask.), and happy (One out of 3 isn't THAT bad, is it?). And so life went for Henry for another 10 years--something that couldn't be said for all of his wives.

    So, in 1547, England has a new king, nine YO Edward. It was during this time that the Church of England starts its move to becoming a bit more Protestant. That is to say, until 6 years later when Edward dies and his 37 YO half sister Mary takes over for about five years in 1553.

    Mary had never renounced the Roman Catholicism of her mother or grandparents. She was going to do her best to reconcile England with Rome. Some Protestant leaders were put to death, while many others fled to the continent--most wound up in John Calvin's Geneva, and, while there began to produce what we call the Geneva Bible. The circumstances that led these people to Geneva probably had something to do with the not-so-kind comments about various OT monarchs.

    Mary's reign ended with her death in 1558, and, since she had no children, her 22 YO half sister Elizabeth assumes the throne and reigns for about 45 years, Protestantism enjoys a re-birth, and, in general England's Elizabethan Period is one of stability.

    This is not to say that there were no religious debates, because there was plenty of that. For the most part there was a faction who wanted to implement several changes that would further distinguish the Church of England from Rome (to "purify" it from romish trappings, hence the name "Puritan." [Most of these were from that party who'd returned from their exile in Geneva.]) and the "high church" traditionalist who saw no reason to change to a more contemporary style of worship. (Where have we heard that controversy before? ;) )

    Well, "Good Queen Bess" never did marry and had no immediate heirs when she died in 1603. There had been an arrangement in 1586 that stipulated that he would become king (He was the great-great grandson of England's Henry VII via Henry VIII's younger sister Margaret, for those of you who are still keeping track. :sleeping: ). The fact that Elizabeth also awarded him with a substantial pension probably helped minimize his protesting when in 1587 Elizabeth ordered the execution of James's mother, "Mary Queen of Scots."

    Did James REALLY care that much about a new translation of the Bible? Probably only to the extent that he cared little for that growing Puritan faction and those irritating anti-monarchal notes that their Geneva Bible contained.

    It ought also to be kept in mind that, by this time, the Puritan ranks had varying degrees of the extent to which folks believed the Church of England needed purification. Some came to the conclusion that it was beyond purifying and felt that folks needed to consider separating from it completely.

    These folks were called Separatists, and many of them suffered greatly. They also tended to be somewhat lower on the socio-economic ladder than most Puritans. It was from among these ranks that some sought passage in 1620 to the New World on a ship called the "Mayflower" (BTW, not all on that ship were people seeking religious refuge) and became what we now call the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony.

    James dies in 1625, and his oldest surviving son Charles takes over. He had little use for the Parliament, which by this time was controlled by Calvinistic Puritans. When he was forced by Parliament to call them into session in 1629 in order raise taxes to subsidize his military ventures in France, they not only refused to abide by his wishes, but they also demanded that all traces of Arminian teachings in the Church of England be done away with.

    Charles then arrested the leaders of Parliament, and dissolved it. That body wasn't called into session for another 11 years. It was also during this time period that many of these upper-middle class Puritans found their way to what was called the Massachusetts Bay Colony. It is only partially correct to say that these Puritans came to the New World for religious freedom from powers that be in England. Yes, they sought to be free from the pressures imposed on them by Charles I, but did NOT allow religious freedom for our Baptist forefathers who were among them.
    Moreover, not all of the Puritans left England.

    Many stayed and became leaders in the English Civil Wars during the 1640's. Many of these English Puritans sought help from their fellow Calvinist followers from the north in Scotland.(NOTE: While James I was a Protestant, he was NOT a Presbyterian....He couldn't stand John Knox.)

    If you're a "true" Scotsman, you don't have to have many reasons not to get in a fight with the English. :thumbs: For a short period of time in the middle 1640's this Anglo-Scottish Puritan coalition controlled both the religious and political aspects.

    Two significant religious things occurred during this period. One was the development of the famous Westminster Confession of Faith (so named for the London cathedral where it was promulgated) that today many Presbyterians still hold dear and on which the Westminster Catechisms is based. The other was the Directory of Worship which, among other things, did away with the English practice of immersing infants for baptism.

    While many of the English people sympathized with the idea of Calvinism, they did not see the need for a change in church polity. Anglicans still thought highly of their church offices of bishop and archbishops. Presbyterians, on the other hand, sought to operate by a group of ruling elders.

    By 1649, Charles I was beheaded. During what's called the Interregnum (You Latin scholars know what that means. :wave: ), England was ruled for about 10 years by Oliver Cromwell--not as a king, but what he called the Lord Protector. But people grew tired of him and his costly wars with Spain. When he died in 1658, his son Richard tried to assume that role but was even less popular than his daddy.

    Negotiations with the son of Charles I, also named Charles (who spent most of the 1650's in exile in France) succeeded in restoring the monarchy (hence the term the "Restoration Period"). While Charles promised to do a lot of things before he was restored to the throne, guess what, after his coronation he didn't keep all of his campaign promises! :eek:

    It was during his reign that the famous Baptist John Bunyon was put in prison for being an unlicensed preacher (Folks that did this back then were called nonconformists. "Pilgrim's Progress" was written in that prison in Bedford, England.

    Charles II died childless in 1685, so his younger brother James (who was James VII of Scotland). While Charlie tended to keep his Roman Catholic sympathies hidden until he was firmly established on the throne, Jimmy had no desire to surpress his religious ties with Rome until it was too late.

    In 1688, a son named (of all things) James was born to James II and his Italian wife Mary(James's 2d wife). That was the straw that broke the camel's back for English people. The while James said he'd abandon all his pro-Catholic policies, it wasn't enough to suit the English.

    James left for France and was there welcomed by the "Sun King" Louis XIV.

    William of Orange [a region in Holland](a grandson of Charles II through his 2d wife Mary) and Mary (daughter of James II by his 1st wife), cousins and both strong Protestants were married (He was in his late 30's; she was only 15.) in 1677. Ten years later this couple was invited to become co-regnants in what was called the "Glorious Revolution."

    Having recently fought a series of wars with the Dutch (Most which the English won--that's why we have a state called NY instead of New Netherlands.), not every Englishman was thrilled to have somebody from there as his king. Since William was quite aware of this, he kept a low profile, acceeded to most of Parliament's wishes, agreed to the Declaration of Right in 1689.

    So, for those who are still with me, there you have it. And, yes, there WILL be a test. :wave:
     
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had a history teacher in college who would start a great story like this. He was so near-sighted he could not see the chalk board. He literally kept telling his story and wandered out into the hall and was telling his story to the water fountains.

    One of our classmates, finally got up the nerve to slip out and kindly direct him back through the open door into the class where he continued as if nothing had happened.

    Sorry, off track, just recalled an interesting college day.
     
  4. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Doesn't ANY KJVo want to take the challenge?

    What is the word-for-word perfect Bible in 1605? (question asked 201 times)
     
  5. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh Great KARNAK tell us, tell us. We who are in darkness pray thee, tell us!
    What WAS the prefect Bible in 1605?
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  6. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,506
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, Jim, we can tell you it wasn't the KJV. :eek: [​IMG]
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps it's the Operator's Bible in Homer Simpson's work desk.
     
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,506
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL...now that's a good one! I needed that laugh! Thanks, roby! [​IMG]
     
Loading...