Good for Baptist Women; SBC Still Not Listening

Pastor Annie McLaren, Lake Avenue Church

Pastor Kathy Allen, Desert Springs Assembly of God

Pastor Jeanie Osterberg, Trinity Church Evangelical Free

 

What exactly does "being really Bapist" mean? Exluded from obeying Scripture? Does it give them some certain rights, because they are "really" Baptist?

I don't think so. We make too much of the name Baptist anyhow.

This ordaining of women does not ride on whether right or wrong because so many have an opinion one way or the other as implied by yourself. It rides upon proper Biblical roles and upon Scripture. I believe it is anti-biblical.

Dismissing the issues as not up for debate is bowing out.

 

A nice attempt at diversion ... a nice attempt to redirect. I simply said that the best ministers at ministry in the last 15 to 20 years has been women ministers. I do not believe JW's have women ministers.

All Christians have to answer to God!

What Baptist minister do you know who administers discipline without going to others, say a board of deacons, explains the situation and seeks advice and approval of the discipline?

How much discipline has you seen administered recently?

Since when does a Baptist say that a minister stands between an individual and God?

 

There is a lot of bias in what you say CBT. I say this because in the past you have shown much disdain toward pastors of the male version.

I would suspect this has something to do with male figures in your past, in your growing up, and thus you lean toward women, but not because it is biblical, because it certainly isn't, but due to things in your life.

 

I do not think I am afraid of women Pastors, I merely believe it is unBiblical. As well, this has nothing to do with their giftedness or equality to man, but that God sets up a clear role of authority and submission.

Where this debate has come into play the most is in the doctrine of the Trinity. There is a growing movement to deny the eternal submission and authority within the Trinity, mostly because they have a warped view of equality, authority, and submission. Those who believe that to be equal means they share the ability to have the same authority has caused theological chaos. They are questioning, "How can the Father be equal to the son but the son was eternally submissive to the authority of the Father?" Their argument is basically to be equal (a Biblical Concept of the Trinity, all three persons are equal) the Trinity cannot have authority (which is flatly against the historic formula of the Trinity). This is the exact type of argumentation used in the women Pastors and male headship debates from the other side.

Thus, even in the more "conservative" branches who cannot separate authority and submission from equality have now turned to the doctrine of the Trinity to question this doctrine of authority and submission here. For my side, proof that you can be equal but never obtain authority status is supported most wonderfully by the Trinity.

The questioning has occurred within the framework of our modern culture's move that to be equal you must be able to have the same authority and submission. However, the Trinity doctrine both puts forth equality within the Godhead, but clear authority and submission roles. In humans, we see this same type of formula in Genesis where the man rules over the woman, but both are equal as humans. The role of the Pastor is the exact same. Both men and women are equal and are gifted, but man should be the Pastor.

Thus, the doctrine of the Trinity has been turned into a new formula because of a desire to show equality without authority and submission.

I believe that while the other side is logical in moving towards the Trinity, they are making a cultural understanding of authority and submission become their driving force than clear exposition of Scripture.

 

OK, annsni, you got my attention.

First, let me clear up something. I read four versions of the Bible: KJB, NRSV, NIV 1984, NLT 2007, and a few interlinears. I read the KJB in my personal Bible study, but I also read the other versions and interlinears. Thus, I am not KJBO. However, I do often speak up on behalf of the KJB as my way of celebrating the 400th Anniversary.

For many years now, I have enjoyed reading and listening to Shakespeare plays, so the language of KJB is much easier for me than for some. I also like collecting dictionaries and enjoy reading about the history of words. In a few days I plan on posting a review of the latest dictionary on my shelf: Archaic Words and the Authorized Version, 3rd ed. (Vance, 2011). I look forward to your comments in that review. I hope you will not disappoint me.

Next, let me apologize for some of the comments I have directed to you in the past. Like others here on BB, my mouth (or fingers) run ahead of my brain and southern manners. So, please forgive me for anything I have posted that may have offended you.

The truth is, you are one of the wittiest people on the board. So please keep doing what you are doing. And I think your support of your husband in his ministry is admirable.

Finally, I hope everyone enjoys the Christian discussion.


...Bob

 

I have seen very good male ministers, but I have to stand by my statement that in the last 20 years the very best have been women.

Also, as I have said before, some of the best sermons I have hears were from women. We have a young woman from Holland and she preached one of the best sermons I have hears two Sundays ago. A young woman from Estonia, very brilliant I might add, has preached several extremely good sermons.

Molly Marshall taught me much a few years ago when she was the primary speaker at a week long meeting I attended.

I thank God for good and great ministers, both male and female.

Nothing about gender in your quote of scripture.
Submit to them how? In fall things? Without question? Are they to submit to my authority when they are wrong?

Who decided what the discipline will be?

I'd like to hear more. This is a very interesting reply.

Again, nothing about gender.

I do not see the submission going far beyond submitting to instruction as the pastor should be more highly educated than others in the church when it comes to understanding scripture. This is not always the case, but it should be.

I do not see authority as going far beyond this as each person has to answer to God for him/herself for their beliefs, attitudes, actions, etc.

Likewise I would expect a pastor to submit to the wisdom of others in the church in areas where they have greater education, knowledge and wisdom than he/she. For instance we have a doctor in our small congregation. If a medical question came up within the church I would expect all, including the pastor, to submit to the doctor's opinion as it would be far greater than his/hers or others.

We used to have a man, he moved to Arkansas, was run an mutual fund and gave investment advice to clients. Surely our pastor and the church sought his advice and almost always followed it .... in essence submitting to his authority inn fiscal matters as he was and is very good.

We have women in our church I would certainly turn to and submit to in their wisdom in areas where I and others have little knowledge.

Do you agree?

 

They are committed evangelicals? Probably by the "New Evangelicalism" definition. Yet, historically they would not be considered evangelical. New Evangelicalism is a liberalization of evangelicalism, but historically they are not.

 

OK. But it seems we've moved from pastors to a more general "ministers."

Could you name some clearly evangelical women pastors?

 

Those are great examples of Christians submitting to each other, which we are instructed to do in scripture. While I believe women are not to teach or usurp authority over the men in a church setting, I think that too often this teaching is used to prevent women from giving input at church. It is taken to the extreme in some IFB churches, where women are not even allowed to speak during business meetings.

I believe women have much to offer in a church and should be allowed to serve on various boards along with men, as long as they are not a pastor or deacon. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much of this in conservative Baptist churches.

 

Again, from a historical perspective, evangelicals have never been developed a solid position on the role of women in ministry. They are as diverse on this as their churches. So you can be wholly evangelical and still advocate for women in ministry...including ordained ministry.

That said, I don't see a good case from Scripture for women in ministry. It's just not there.

 

There are a lot of women who call themselves pastors. But there are none called by God to be pastors.

No REAL MAN, is afraid to stand up to society and say, "I don't care how strong and intelligent she is, God has clearly delegated the leadership role in churches to men."

Of course, insecure, cowardly men who are afraid to stand up to worldly influence, cave in, and ignore scripture in order to "get along."

 

Don't go there. While your comment is true for many, it is not true of all of those who hold the complementarian position.

Are the two of you still in grade school?

It's juvenile to try to make the issues of women in vocational ministry about whether or not someone is a "real man" or an "insecure, cowardly" man, instead of a careful, faithful understanding of the scripture.

There are faithful and honest scholars on both sides of these issues and these kinds of abusive ad hominem attacks have no place in this discussion.