Good for Baptist Women; SBC Still Not Listening

You need to consider that fact that people on the other side of the issue see this exactly the same way. Their understanding of scripture does not exclude women from pastoral leadership. You may very well disagree with their interpretation, but you have no right to assign the following views as a blanket condemnation of the other side:

This adds nothing to the discussion except condemnation, and there's already plenty of that to go around.

It's interesting that W.A. Criswell supported his wife teaching an enormous Sunday School class (composed of men and women and also broadcast on the radio) throughout his pastorate at FBC Dallas, and he was not condemned by the so-called "Bible-believers" who oppose women teaching men.

Paige Patterson strongly supported and endorsed Dr. E. Earle Ellis throughout Ellis' time at Southwestern Seminary, when Ellis is clearly on record (in scholarly journals and in classes) as advocating women in ministry, even as "senior pastors." FYI, Ellis served "at the pleasure of the President" while he was at Southwestern. He was not required to sign the Baptist Faith and Message.

Where is the condemnation for those two "conservative resurgence" heroes? Why aren't they condemned as "liberals"?

Why all the condemnation for those who may see things more in line with Criswell or Patterson?

 

Even John Calvin (Institutes 4:10:29-30) wrote that things such as Paul's prohibition of women teaching in the Church

"ought to be applied to the edification of the Church, with a variety suitable to the manners of each age and nation, therefore, as the benefit of the Church shall require, it will be right to change and abolish former regulations, and to institute new ones"

and that

"these are not fixed and perpetual laws by which we are bound, but external aids for human infirmity, which though we do not need, yet we all use, because we are under obligations to each other to cherish mutual charity between us. This may be observed in the examples already mentioned. What! does religion consist in a woman's veil, so that it would be criminal for her to walk out with her face uncovered? Is the solemn decree respecting her silence such as cannot be violated without a capital offence?"

 

I have yet to find an ultra conservative IFB church that believes a woman should have a voice in a church business meeting.

Sorry, but women should not ask questions during the teaching? So, does that include Sunday School and group Bible Study? After all, that's "church."
And what about the women who aren't married? Paul's culture was different from ours, in that women were either under their father or husband. Nowadays we have single women under neither. So how do they learn if they can't ask their husband at home?

By the way, when I've quietly asked questions or offered input (not in the service) I was told by the pastors that "you (as in ladies) let the men handle it." Then if a man asked the same questions or offered the same input, he was told to "let the BOARD handle it."

 

Need to be "Bible: balanced and avoid extremes on this subject...

women were followers of Christ, Lydia supported the work of Apostle, Phoebe was a deaconess, some were prophesying etc...

NONE though called as Apostles nor Church leaders, so that seems to be "just for men"

 

Sunday School was not around when Paul taught this it was for the worship service. Women teaching women or men teaching women in a sunday school or informal churhc setting is a question time to me. I taught a Friday night bible study and opened it up for quesions to all. Sunday School is not the Worship service. Sounds like the ones being offered advice wanted to have the power over the church, almost every church I have ever attended and the one I pastored the business of the church was open to imput by all. I was open to suggestion on what we should and shouldn't do. We would vote as a church on most matters. But the ultimate decision if it was biblcal falls to the leadreship.
Of course my experience with IFB is limited as the church I grew up in and the one I pastored were independt baptist not formally affiliated with any group.

 

Please provide biblical support where women are allowed to be Elders or to lead a church.

16 To the woman he said,

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

Since the fall many women have desired to rule over their husband just as sin wanted to rule over Cain, instead of being the helper as created to be. Women have many places and great gifts in the church. Please provide scriptural evidence where they are allow to be Elders in a church.

:1_grouphug:

 

Phoebe was a decon in her church in the NT. This is the beginning of the 16th chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Junia was an apostle, or so Paul says.

Romans 16:7

 

Debra WAS a judge in the OT, but believe its because the male got selected to lead refused to do such and she stepped up to lead...

Phoebe was a deaconess in early Church...

Think ladies in Bible can do all things similiar to men in the Church, EXCEPT that the Bible seems to show that there is a Headship/spiritual authority leadership position that should be male...

So pastors/Elders male, everything else fai r game for the fairer sex!

 

CTB, you said:

I think you should rethink this, as "she" was definitely not an apostle nor a "she." These two were "of note" among the apostles. Also, Junia is a male name, not female, a contracted form of Junianus, note it says "my kinsmen?"

 

Agreed. There is no scriptural support of women being in a elder position. :thumbs:

 

Or deaconess as the ESV notes. And in the next verse Phoebe is also called a patron.

This is really quite extraordinary for the ESV, a favorite of many Reformed types and "gender-accurate Bible" devotees.

The Online Etymological Dictionary notes that the English word patron "a lord-master", derives from the Latin word pater "father".

 

A deacon is a servant. The same word is used in the passage about Phoebe as is used in all the other places where deacons are mentioned.

Romans 16:1
NIV -- 1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[a] of the church in Cenchreae.

Common English Bible -- 1 I’m introducing our sister Phoebe to you, who is a deacon[a] of the church in Cenchreae.

New Living Translation -- 1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church in Cenchrea.

The are others.

King James uses servant, but probably because the translators, all men, could not bring themselves to translate the word as deacon ... even though in every other case where the same word is used they translate it as deacon.

Not according to the Bible.

King James gets it right:

Romans 16:7

KJV -- 7Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

 

I am so surprised you refuse to see it. They are "of note" among the apostles. This is no proof-text proving Junia (a male anyhow) an apostle.

In other words, well spoken of, honorable, held in esteem among the apostles.

 

Deacons were meant to be servants, not serve as elders or pastors, though. I think it has been in recent years that we have misused the office and term of deacon to mean a spiritual leader in the church.

The job of a deacon was to help the widows and orphans, etc. which is consistent to what a woman should be allowed to do in the church.

 

Correct! See Acts 6:1-4 "1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.” "

 

Yes, Southern Baptist conservatives Albert Mohler and Mark Dever serve right alongside Congregationalist David Wells on the council of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Wells was a driving force behind the Cambridge Declaration.

His wife? An elder at the Hamilton, Mass. First Congregational Church. How about that!

 

To put it simple. All Deacons are servants but not all servants are Deacons!

So that means the KJV, NKJV, ESV, ASV, BBE, WNT and others got it right. Other translations call her a minister and some a sister. Those translations that called Phoebe a deacon or deaconess were right in as much she was a servant but she was not or was eligible for the office of Deacon, according to scripture.

Oh and Junia was a male name.

 

It absolutely is a male name. It is common that people look at this and think "couple."

Not only this, but they weren't being described as Apostles, but as those that the apostles "took note of."