'Government persecuting' jailed creation evangelist

All of the laws in the United States are not found in the constitution. There have been laws passed since 1776. I don't believe that Jesus' answer to the church would be any different than it was to an individual. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. This doesn't say that the church is controlled by the government any more than individual Christians are. We can always choose to break a law if we find that it is against our beliefs. We must be willing to suffer the consequences.

Personally, I think this pastor choose the wrong battle to fight. His stand was not really Biblical. He isn't going to jail because he refused to fight in an unjust war or wasn't allowed to preach the gospel. Those would have been much more worthy things to fight for.

 

==If you go back and read what I wrote you would see that I did not say that "Swaggart still practices adultery". I said that "Swaggart was an adulterer". Was is a past tense word. It does not mean nor imply that Swaggart still practices adultery.

==I agree, as do many other Southern Baptists.

==No, but we can see their heart in their actions. Men like Hovind and Haggard are clear for what they are.

==Haggard's preaching today is not the issue. I was talking about the damage his fall did to the church. He may have changed but what he cannot change is the damage he did by his very public fall. That is why pastors, and any Christian in leadership, should always be careful.

==I'm not sure what that means or why you seem to have such an attitude.

 

==I am not sure how your attitude on this forum reflects the love of Christ either. Maybe you should step away from these discussions and get refocused? I have had to do that before.

==I have, and do, pray that Kent Hovind would repent of his disobedience. I was hoping he would carefully read and study passages like Romans 13. He certainly needs to.

==We are not talking about that. We are talking about a man who refused to pay the taxes that are required of him. As I pointed out, "The only time Scripture allows us to disobey government is when obeying the government would put us in direct violation of God's commandments. That was true in the case of Daniel, John, Peter, and Paul, but it is not true in the case of Hovind. Jesus paid His taxes, Paul, Peter, and John, paid their taxes."

==If government tells us to disobey Scripture then we are to obey Scripture and not government. Otherwise, we are to obey both. That is what Hovind does not seem to understand.

==I am not throwing stones. I am a firm believer in the truth that we are to be careful about the teachers/preachers we listen to. Hovind has confused Christians with a very sloppy version of creationism and I believe the church deserves far better than that. Thankfully, the Lord has provided men like Ken Ham and Answers In Genesis.

==That verse is in all the major translations.

 

Actually, I thought this post was funny. You've pegged me wrong. I consistently report attacks on God's word. However, if a personal attack on me is funny, I tend to laugh. Once I laugh at something, I figger I forfeit the right to complain about it.

So, if you want to get away with stuff on me, say something funny enough that I shoot tears of laughter out of my eyes with enough velocity to powerwash a small bus.

Anyway, watch as I seamlessly glide my way back on topic:


Once again...I logically present facts. You get emotional and present very little.

Reread what Hovind did, and tell me it's OK for a Christian to do such things. Repeating my earlier thought: If Hovind felt as though he should consciensiously object to taxes...fine. But he did not handle his civil disobedience in the manner our New Testament folk did. That's a problem.

And before you suggest it...no, I'm not happy it happened. Though I didn't agree with everything Hovind said, I appreciate his courage in taking on the religion of evolution. His actions have removed his microphone.

 

Forgive me for blowing steam I meant no harm.I agree that within law that is not against the principles of Gods Word we should obey.Nevertheless even Ron Paul has mentioned that the tax system is illegally forced upon Americans and the IRS will send people to jail for not paying something thats not really a law to begin with.They twist it as they see fit.

The Federal Reserve is the reason we pay taxes.We are paying interest on the notes in our system.Federal Reserve notes is not money but IOU`s.When you work its not money you earned as you and others think it is but IOU Federal Reserve notes that they consider a loan to you for work you do and you have to pay interest on it and many people see this and refuse to pay taxes on their money even if it means jail.

Thats one reason Ron Paul is demanding an audit on the Federal Reserve so they will give an account on the system that has crashed.John F Kennedy made a speech he would do away with the Federal Reserve and 10 days latter he died.

#1.We pay taxes on money we make.

#2.We pay taxeson money we spend.

#3.And we are taxed on our yearly income if we made over a certain amount.

#4.At the beginning of the year keep every receipt on every thing you buy.

#5.Make sure you see what your employer holds out of your checks whether weekly etc and add that at the end of the year.

#6.Once you see you are a slave to our government financially you will be tempted to dodge the robbers.

#7.Small companies the IRS expects them to give them 38% to 50% percent of their profit.Glad im not a small business.

#8.501c3 churches did not have to become 501c3 and indeed are owned by the Government whether they believe it or not.

#9.When a man and woman gets married they can have a preacher do it without a state license and record it in a family Bible that will stand in a court of law.When one gets married with a state license then their marriage belongs to the government whether they believe it or not.Get married by a pastor with a state license it will take a lawyer and a Government Judge to get you out of it.

501c3 churches are secretly joined to the state without that Church really knowing it.Have a ministry without becoming a registered 501c3 and the government will find a way to illegally shut you down.Nowhere will you find it as law that to have a large church or ministry you must be 501c3 so ministries and churches become one to be tax exempt so they think.Its really a violation of Church and state to become a 501c3 because that Church becomes run by the government by them trying not to lose their tax exemption.

Its coming that all registered 501c3 churches will be attacked by our governmemt demanding millions that cant be payed so they can send to prison Gods messengers.

A no 501c3 Church is tax exempt and cant loose it because they are seperated from their state and government.See these 501c3 churches have a rough road ahead through the NO-Bama Administration.


There was a rich man in a big town close to where I live that refused to pay income Tax for years and got audited and arrested for not paying taxes on his income and he proved in a court of law that the real crooks were the IRS.

The story was in a local paper but never made the news on TV.Most cant fight them because of lawyer fees etc and end up being sent to federal prison if they get over say $20,000.00 behind in their bogus income tax hoax.

I pay my taxes even though I know it is crooked and not right but one day those people wont escape the final Judge.

We need to pray for the fallen Ministers not condemn them to hell.

Again forgive my blowing steam earlier I do love you all.

 

The Bible ask us to obey the law.

We have the law of God and the law of the government.

Our government gets its power from God who allows its existance and from the document (the constitution) written by the people which binds lawful government with limits. The laws and justification for slavery was just as unlawful by this document as many current laws being passed.

Not everyone successfully prosecuted by a court has broken the law of the land..... which is the constitution..... and not every law passed and regarded as law by our government has been measured or successfully challenged by complying with our constitution.

Pilgram brings up some important points.

Some regard justice and obediance to the laws of God..... no matter what the laws of man say.

For example.... it is authority of God which blesses a marriage and an act of God which lawfully dissolves it. The requirement to possess a license implies that one needs permission to engage in a right which is owned or possessed by another: The state gives a license to marry.... then has a vested interest or ownership of the outcome: That license gives them the right to interfere in your home.... and to tell you how to raise your children, to determine by what criteria you may be assessed as to whether you neglect or abuse your children, that their rights superceed your own regarding choice of medical care, school absences, etc.

Fair or not: A man hires you at a promised wage of $7.50 an hour. You work 10 hrs and get $75.00. He pays his taxes and you pay yours. What's wrong with that and how is government cheated? But.... government says to the man who hires you that he must pay his taxes AND his SS. Then gov tells the man that he must withhold from your pay, income tax and half of your SS and pay the government....... THEN the government tells him that the other half of SS due on the bases of YOUR wages must be paid by HIM. At this point, the government has extorted from your employer to pay something in your name and on your behalf for which you did not contribute: In fact it is like a tax for being an employer. Besides..... participation in SS is supposed to be VOLUNTARY and for anyone wishing to opt out.... must file annually to have it returned. But, let's say.... your employer has no questions and performs his good citizen duties w/o question: Yet it consumes some of his accounting time to do the bookkeeping and perform those uncompensated duties which he does so obediantly to government.

What about the church and its paying taxes? Don't all the people who attend and support the church with their offerings and gifts already pay taxes on the income from which this is given. (Government's excuse to this is that they 'allow' an exclusion from taxable income the amounts for 'charitable' giving...... but look carefully at the criteria..... and one can quickly reason that relatively very few meet the criteria for which itemizing church giving is substantial in reducing their taxes and the government has set limits). Now to whom do the offering go? If for the ministry of the church.... then, although men may be the tools of determination and distribution...... isn't their authority to do so under God and in his name? Now what if, for the use of their time and talents and the continuity in the functioning of the church.... some monies are passed to assist the living and support of some in specific functions such as preaching, leading the chior, the secretary, or the organist/pianist/ whatever? If such accumulates to the point where taxes are due..... those with the earnings should pay them. The church owes nothing to Ceasar.......

Regarding property ownership..... there is a good argument that the government is already involved far too much in determining what we can do or not do and how it can interfere in the use of our property. Any way......... when government can charge a tax on something you've already paid for..... and then remove it from your possession if you default...... then it is already their's and the annual taxes are your rents and their invasion or consideration which determines what you do with it is the unspoke contract which demands your compliance and gives them rights of enforcement.

A citizen in our country has a right and a privilege, whatever the risk may be, to challenge the action and powers of government: However.... one can talk all they want, even write arguements about what they think..... but the law doesn't get compared with the constitution until a person steps once or more times on the boundaries to create a challenge to the law. Government can't prosecute free speach but it can prosecute action. In some cases, the government doesn't act immediately..... but waits...... either hoping for more offenses or to provoke more offenses until such a point as the number to be defended becomes overwhelming to counsel who would make a constitutional defense.

If the Hovind's are evil..... the government is more so: Many of the standards and promises on which these tax laws were passed with the support of the people, have been altered, changed, and proved to be lies..... and a government which keeps changing its laws and yardstick by which it can judge and prosecute its citizens.... is capable of so altering the outcome as to make criminals of us all.

So believe what you want and condem who you will:

I still believe in God.
And I still believe in the faithfulness of KH, and "Jo" as being credible and sincere Christians who in their good conscience, discharged the steward ship given to them.

 

Pilgrim, thanks for the words, and I can appreciate your frustration with our system of taxation.

 

I don't think anyone is questioning his faith or salvific state. The issue with Hovind is not his faith, it's his actions.

In all objectivity, Kent Hovind is clearly a charlatain and fraud. Not only is he a self-evident tax cheat, but he's also a fraud about his education. It is well documented that his supposed "doctorate" is fake, having obtained it from a degree mill (aka, pay us x dollars, and you get a degree). He never wrote a doctoral thesis as a condition for his fake degree (a simple call to the "college" confirms that there is no doctoral thesis on available for him).

And then there are the numerous claims he's made about his so-caled museum. Just for starters, he claimed to have on display a "giant" legbone, as evidence for claiming that giant humans existed in the past as per biblical account. In reality, though, the legbone was a 2x scale resin copy of a normal human legbone, which can be easily purchased from medical supply chains online (the 2x scale replicas are typically used for teaching or demonstration).

If we discussed all of his falsehoods, we wouldn't have enough time in a day. Suffice it to say that, regardless of where one stands on the evolution/creation issue, this man should absolutely not be used as a source for material. Doing so does nothing but damage the Christian witness.

 

Yes the government gets its power from God and God gives us the brains to see if that power is being used un-lawful.

Yes and this is very wicked and should not be.

Dont you think the law of our government has been twisted to trick us?

Interesting article on 501c3 churches.


http://www.guymalone.com/501c3church.htm

Hillary clinton has said our children belongs to the government and they can take our land if they really want to.

We really dont have constitutional rights.

Yes the government is the real crooks and we the people need to realize what being married with a state license really means and Christians of what being a 501c3 Church really means.When a ministry or church becomes a 501c3 they are secretly becoming government propert and joined to the state.

 

Any evidence about the children thing, or are you just talking out of your hat? And eminent domain IS legal. If your land is needed for infrastructure, it can be taken, but you will be compensated for the loss. What I disagree with is using eminent domain to take your property and give it to a private entity (e.g. taking your home to build a WalMart).

Funny, I still have most of mine.

 

Ahem . . . Sources?

 

On his supposed "degree". Hovind lists having a PhD from Patriot University. Patriot University is a diploma mill, identified by "Name It and Frame It" and "The Chronicle of Higher Education". His degree is in Christian Education, not science (PU grants only religious degrees). On Hovind's own literature, his bios claims he is "a well-known creation speaker with a PhD in education", and referrs to "shortly after finishing his Ph.D. in education". He did not receive a PhD in education. That's an EdD. His PhD is in Christian Education. The qualifications for a Ed.D. and Ph.D. are hugely different.

The core requirement to receive a doctroal degree is to write a doctoral dissertation, which is then made available by the college to anyone wishing to to conduct research. Originally, Patriot had no record of his dissertation in their library. Hovind has claimed on his website that his disseration is 250 pages long, and is titled "The Effects of Teaching Evolution on the Students in our Public School System". Eventually, Patriot made available a 100 page disseration, which is interesting, because PU's requirements for theses is 150 pages. Further, the dissertation has no title, and none of which contains any research or data on the topic of evolution in the public school system (Chapter 1 gives a history of evolution; chapter 2 discusses evolution as a religion; chapter 3 states consequences of evolution, and chapter 4 discusses the age of the Earth). Now, I myself assisted in the research and compsition of my wife's Master's Degree in Christian Education, and have an adequate understanding of what goes into the writing of a thesis on Hovind's topic. I can tell you with authority that his dissertation is written no better than a junior high term paper.

On the fake leg bone, his Creation Museum displayed what is claimed to be a "thigh bone from the 13 foot man". Hovind's Creation Seminar Series also references it directly, in parts 1-3 and 6-7. He states in his series, "... this thigh bone here over my head which is from a human which would have been nearly 13 feet tall...". But it's actually a replica (which Hovind briefly mentions in part 2). What Hovind doesn't say is that it's a 2x replica model. Joe Taylor of Mt. Blanco Museum provided the replica to Hovind. It's actually 2:1 female skeleton replica, which is available for sale to the general public via catalog from the Mt. Blanco Museum for about $500.00. Also, the proportions are wrong of this were genuine. A 13-foot skeleton would actually have different proportions than simply doubling the proportions of a 5 or 6 foot human.

Rgarding Hovind's criminal history, it's readily documented and self evident in public records in Hovind vs Schneider (2002), Hovind vs Commissioner Internal Revenue (2002), US Tax Court (2006), US vs Kent and Jo Hovind (2006), Hovind vs IRS Commisioner (2007), and more.

 

You need to read Hillary Clintons it takes a villiage to raise a child.Villiage is a cover word for the Government.

Also see this article on the village.


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4484/village.htm

http://www.libertarianism.org/ex-7.html

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/village.html





I have lived on my property for 37 years and the Government can have it over my dead body if they ever wanted it.God gave it to me and it is where my mother died and the land my deceased Father and Mother bought in 1971 and where I was raised and me and my wife has lived since we were married in 1988.

There is not enough money to compensate the years and memories.I live way off in the country between large rich land owners that would never give their thousands of acres up without a civil war.I live on 4 acres and it is not much but its my life.

 

Have you read the book, or just going on hearsay? It says nothing about children belonging to the state, so either its the latter, or you are woefully forgetful. Her point is that children are part of our larger society, and we need to all take care of the weakest in our society. When I grew up, if I did something out of line, you can be sure a neighbor would call me on it, and then call my mom & dad. THAT is what Hillary is talking about.

I understand your feelings. But if a new interstate is planned for your land, you will be taken off by means of force. That is due process, which is what you are entitled to under the Constitution. It is like Mr. Spock said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." There is no financial compensation sufficient for such things as you mention, but this is how it works.

 

The parent is the only one with that responsibility until there is no parent.

 

Of course, but not all parents are good parents. Some don't teach their kids right from wrong. Some abuse their kids. Some rape their kids. Some take drugs with their kids. Some neglect their kids. In such cases, society owes those kids protection. Parental rights are not absolute, and do not constitute ownership either.

 

I live 2 miles from the Interstate 1-20 so I wont worry.It would take force to move me and I assure you I will promise them their constitutional right to get shot.

Also quit covering for the most evil woman in America besides Oprah.The Government is our childrens worst enemy for profit.

 

Well, there goes any hope of a rational discussion. Such extreme language does you no good. Most evil woman in America? A bit of hyperbole, don't you think. And if you decide to make a stand against the government after you have your due process, you will be the one who dies that day. There is no right in the Constitution for you to shoot law enforcement personnel sent to do a job.

By the way, can you answer. Have you actually read the book you bring up?

 

Some parents are like this but Our kids are forced to be brain-washed evolution in school and denied prayer in the name of Jesus and can have an abortion without their parent knowledge and can get birth control or a condom from their teacher and cant read their bible publicly.

Now whos the enemy.

Parents have the right to keep their children educated in the ways of God as in creation etc and parents have the right to know if their daughters get pregnant andits their choice of what to do not our government controlled school system.

Who`s side you on Gods or the devilish governments?

 

Perhaps I would die and perhaps a bullet from my gun would return the favor but its my property until the day I die.

I read pieces of the trashy book.

If you support hillary or oprah I am not permitted to say what I think.