Gun na Make Up My Mind?

God has already given us instructions:

“Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” - ‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:14-21‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

I will definitely use force to defend my family. Will not hesitate.

 

As you fail to give the verses you quote from, save the last, I will answer to the last. (Rom. 12:14-21) speaks to conduct among believers in regards to their use of various gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You say God has already given us instructions concerning the use of violence, and thus you quote many verses. I have thought on this subject quite a bit. So I would ask you, as I asked myself, where would you draw the line? Where is the point where you would resort to guns or violence?

If an intruder breaks into your home and you have wife and daughters there, will you defend yourself? As your wife and daughters are being raped, will you bow down next to them and pray? Is that what God wants you to do? You will indeed look spiritual. Will you ever be spiritual in your wife and daughters eyes again?

Where would you draw the line?

Quantrill

 

I have never been at a point in my life where it was necessary to resort to guns or violence. Much like the issue of killing people in military service to a country, I have no firm opinion as to if it okay or not to do so. I was never drafted as the draft ended just before I turned 18 years old in 1973, thus I never had to reach a conclusion on the subject even after studying it. God has spared me from having to decide such issues and I hope He will continue to do so in my time left on earth. We have no record of the apostles once they became disciples of Jesus of them using violence(yes, Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the temple; Jesus is God and we are not). There is no direct example in the New Testament of Christians being told to use violence. Thus, appeals are generally made to the Old Testament or to other non-New Testament sources to justify Christians using violence.

 

That doesn't mean you wont be at that point one day. And though you 'have no opinion' on it, that really doesn't answer my question. What would you do if an intruder broke into your home and was raping your wife or daughter? Would you resort to violence, or would you just pray for them? What would they want you to do? What would God want you to do?

God hasn't spared others from having to much such decisions. Were they wrong? Were they going against God? Are you saying the Christian policeman is going against God when he has to shoot and kill a criminal?

Why is it that Christians as yourself want others to do the dirty work in keeping them safe, but then bemoan how unchristian it was.

Quantrill

 

I have neither wife nor daughter. I doubt I could stop it anyway, if I ever was in such a situation.

Never said it was unChristian to do so. I do not have all of the answers and I have never met anyone who does, even if in their own mind they think they do.

 

I wasn't asking for all the answers. Just one. You still fail to answer. What would you do? It doesn't matter how it turns out. You may even be killed. Does that mean you do nothing?

Yes you did. You said God has already given us the instructions. So to resort to violence is disobedience to the instructions. UnChristian.

If you don't know how you would respond in such a situation, and you don't want to answer how you might respond, perhaps you shouldn't throw out verses encouraging other believers how they should respond.

Quantrill

 

Do you ever sin? Are you ever disobedience to God's instructions? I freely admit that I sin and am disobedient; I am not perfect in my Christian walk - much to my chagrin.

Sorry, but you want me to answer a theoretical question that I have never been faced with answering; thus, I do not know how I would respond - neither in my spiritual nature nor in my fleshly nature. All I can hope is that I would respond as my Lord wants me to do.

The idea that we cannot share the Scriptures unless we already have all of the answers to all of the questions is just plum silly.

I would hope to abide by the words of the apostle Paul - Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (ESV)

 

Then you definitely will not like the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The second Joshua who with His heavenly armies conquers the whole earth. Revelation should torment a pacifist.

Of course we fight wars as nations over justice and defense. The standrad is in the OT. We give the death penalty to those who murdered others as God lays out in Genesis 9. We defend ourselves, our loved ones, and even our neighbors. There is no room for vengeance because war and law and order are meted out by governments, which the NT tells us are installed by God. Governments that should recognise the defense of ourselves if attacked.

 

So when you say "All I can hope is that I would respond as my Lord wants me to do", you're saying the Lord would not want you to use violence if an intruder broke in and was raping your wife?

What is silly is using Scripture to the extent that you do nothing when placed in a serious situation. When you expect others to be violent to protect you, policeman, soldiers, yet yourself are too spiritual to do that. That is silly. Did you ever think you are misusing the verses?

Good verse, (Phil. 1:21). As your watching your wife being raped, that is a good time to exercise it. You can die for her if it happens, by violently attacking her rapist. (Eph. 5:25) You won't be dying for her by doing nothing and letting evil have her.

Quantrill

 

Since my wife about five months ago, I would appreciate it if you would quit using this illustration towards me.

 

Nope. Didn't say that.

 

It is just an illustration. No personal insult is intended. It doesn't have to be your wife. It could be your sister or a co-worker.

The point now is, you refuse to answer. That tells me that you don't really believe the verses you use, as to what you use them for.

Quantrill

 

Well, yes you did. But now you're saying different. So, explain what you mean by the verses you quoted and saying God has already given us the instructions.

I asked you before, where do you draw the line. You said you don't know.

You now say you never said the Lord doesn't want us to ever use violence.

So, if you don't know where the line is and you do believe it is right at times to use violence, you need to explain those verses.

Quantrill

 

We live in a fallen, corrupted world populated by corrupted humans. Sometimes we may do things we hate to do but feel it is necessary at the time, such as disciplining a child. I am not saying that using violence is always wrong as that is not my call to make, but it is certainly not be done lightly or flippantly, and should be the last resort.

 

And when 'last resort comes', you use it. I agree.

Quantrill

 

Thank you for a common sense reply sans all the "BUTS"!
I know for me I hate the thought of killing someone, and would love to just be able to threaten OR wound superficially if that would eliminate a threat, BUT I've never been in a situation requiring neutralizing a threat, so I still don't know how I would handle it. But I can assure you that if a loved one was the focus of said threat, I would not waste my time trying to decide.
At a point like this I would just trust that God would guide me to the right actions WITHOUT my having to stop and pray about it; and personally I think He would!
As my Daddy used to say, "Do something, even if you have to clean t up!"