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Hal Lindsey a False Prophet?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by PastorSBC1303, Jan 31, 2006.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Bro Tony -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Calvibaptist: // Have you ever wondered why
    the church for 2,000 years never knew about
    a so-called Rapture until a group of Brethren
    assemblies began listening to a woman
    prophet in the mid-1800's? That's where
    the view originated.//

    This is an interesting statement invented by Dave MacPherson
    in the mid-70s. I was a Christian for 20 years before I ever heard
    the statement.

    2 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible
    /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Then we who are still alive will be caught up together
    with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;
    and so we will always be with the Lord.

    Here is the testimony of 1500 years:

    2 Thessalonians 4:17 :(The Latin Vulgate, 476AD):

    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis
    in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    simul = together
    rapiemur = caught up

    'Rapiemur' is a form consistant with the sentence of
    a word which was transliaterated into English as 'rapture'.

    The term 'Rapture' comes from the Bible where it has been
    for over 1500 years, testimony to to the falseness of the
    statement posted at the top of this post. OF course,
    I suppose if you define 'rapture' in the sentence other
    than how the bible defines it, one might make the statement
    at the top true.
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Ed Edwards.

    Neither the NIV or KJV have the word rapture in them.

    Why isn't it in the two above translation? Is it used in any English translation, I would be interested to know?

    'caught up together' I believe in. I don't like the word rapture.

    john.
     
  3. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Thank you all for quoting Scripture to me that I already know. As I have said, from these same Scriptures, the church taught for 2,000 years that they referred to Christ's second coming. It was not until the mid-1800's that a small segment of the church (the Brethren movement) began to say that they referred to a special catching up of the church 7 years before Christ's second coming and called this teaching "the Rapture."

    I do not deny that these Scriptures exist. I just don't see how they necessitate a teaching of a Pre-Tribulation rapture, followed by a 7-year Tribulation, then another resurrection (the 1st and a half resurrection if your a Dispensationalist) of Tribulation saints and the Old Testament saints, followed by a Millenium, followed by the second ressurection at the end of the millenium.

    Revelation says there are two resurrections: the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked. Those who take part in the first resurrection cannot be touched by the second death. So what about those at the end of the tribulation? Where do we find a verse that says there are three resurrections? At the most, at this point I buy a post-tribulation rapture. That would actually fit the entirety of the verses most. But a pre-tribulation rapture is forced into the verses because of a theological system.
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    No doctrine should be brought forth from Revelation. Revelation must be explained using the other books.

    MT 13:47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    51 "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.

    MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    There is only one resurrection. Just too many scriptures saying the good and the bad will rise at one time.

    john.
     
  5. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Here is where you and I clearly see things differently John. As well as your tendency to spiritualize the meaning of being "caught up". I see you quote from the preterist perspective, so I understand why you do this with Paul's terms and your approach to Revelation. I understand----I dont agree with it. I will approach the Scripture from the Apostle's perspective rather than from a pre-conceived theology such as preterism. He said----

    Revelation is Scripture and Paul says it is profitable for doctrine. So I will derive my doctrine from the Book of Revelation and the 65 other books of the Bible.

    Bro Tony
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Bro Tony.

    I don't believe the prophecies are already accomplished. I had a quick search on the web for info on the Jesuit and after finding several sources supporting what I had read I settled on that site. It was just a matter of history. I don't think, from the desciption of preterism in the dictionary, that I am a preterist. The anti-Christ must come before Christ.

    I don't see why you say I spiritualise the catching up as I believe it is in the flesh that we will be. :cool:

    And right to. I didn't mean to denigrate scripture but if a doctrine is brought forth which conflicts with the rest of the book then it should not be entertained. I accept your correction.

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16

    Of course I believe that I'm a Calvinist. :cool:

    I really have nothing to lose here as none of my doctrines are threatened in anyway by anything from the end of the book. That's why I haven't joined in the debate as such.

    'and is profitable for doctrine' Of course but I am saying that if anyone comes up with two or three resurrections then they are flying in the face of many scriptures that indicate only one and that is not profitable.

    The book is a minefield for anyone let alone for those who want to know the future. HaHa! I will know the anti-Christ when he arrives and then a lot of the book will be self-explanatory. Otherwise I might end up with London underground train maps like Me4Him and I might not be here to use them. :cool:

    When Jesus returns it's over.

    How's that?

    john.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Johnp.: //'caught up together' I believe in. I don't like the word rapture.//

    Then mark me down as a pretribulation 'caught up together'ist.

    Johnp.: //Just too many scriptures saying the good and
    the bad will rise at one time.//

    Feel free to list them.

    Johnp.: //There is only one resurrection.//

    ------------------------------------
    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a 'caught up together' of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
    ------------------------------------
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Ed Edwards.

    Five Resurrections. :cool:

    The term 'Rapture' comes from the Bible where it has been for over 1500 years, testimony to to the falseness of the statement posted at the top of this post.

    Why isn't it in the NIV & KJV translation? Is it used in any English translation, I would be interested to know?

    At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    God is always Sovereign.

    john.
     
  9. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    John,

    Thank you for your response. I am glad you are not a preterist. You were the one who said that the catching up was the Lord raising his people up spiritually (on page 8), If I understood you wrong, my apologies. The word rapture may not be in the English translation, the concept is--look to the Scriptures I provided (in the same way the word Trinity is not in the English translation- the concept is all throughtout the Scripture). As to their being several resurrections---it seems to be a definition of terms. Jesus is the resurrection and His resurrection is always referred to as the "first resurrection" but as Paul said each in his own order----

    20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

    The only other resurrection that differs is the second resurrection--that being the resurrection of the damned to stand before the Great White Throne and be cast into the lake of fire.

    All who are in the first resurrection are blessed, all in the second are damned.

    Bro Tony
     
  10. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    I really love the way you make statements with no Scriptural support, but make them as if they should be obvious to everyone. Have you ever wondered why the church for 2,000 years never knew about a so-called Rapture until a group of Brethren assemblies began listening to a woman prophet in the mid-1800's? That's where the view originated.

    I used to believe in Pre-Tribulation Pre-millenialism. However, in having to defend my view against Post-millenialists, I had a hard time actually finding Scriptures that were clear on a rapture. I now have moved to Classical Pre-millenialism which has been around since the first century. I still see a literal millenium (it's hard for me to get around that). I just can't find a rapture.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Try this link, read the "entire link", then we'll discuss the rapture.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

    P.S. you won't find any "quotes" from any books written by man, only the "Bible". :D
     
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