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Harambe the Gorilla part deux

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    May 31, 2015
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    Brother Protestant,

    Please forgive me in my participation of your thread that got derailed. I started this one so you can pick up where we destroyed your original thread.
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  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple

    Aug 28, 2001
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    I ran across this in my reading today (by Piper) and it introduces what I believe is an important distinction.

    "Why is it important to be stunned by the God-centeredness of God? Because many people are willing to be God-centered as long as they feel that God is man-centered. It is a subtle danger. We may think we are centering our lives on God when we are really making Him a means to self-esteem. Over against this danger I urge you to ponder the implications, brothers, that God loves His glory more than He loves us and that this is the foundation of His love for us."
  3. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Yes, SG, the thread got hijacked!

    As I was explaining before the thread was closed, our views of man and God are quite different from that of our detractors.

    No matter the spins our opponents place on man’s will, the end result is the same:

    Man ultimately, with or without God’s help (sufficient grace), has the power of free will for self-determining his eternal destiny.

    Furthermore, they insist God would have it no other way.

    Truth be told, their version of sufficient grace damns more men than saves them:

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it (Matthew 7:13:14).

    We, on the other hand, believe Scripture teaches the opposite.

    Man’s will is inextricably tied to his fallen sin nature, and as such, holiness is vile and detestable to him.

    The concept of a free will having perfect equilibrium to choose holiness over evil (or vice versa), is nowhere taught in Scripture.

    In fact, man’s severe spiritual infirmities, coupled with his hating heart are more than sufficient biblical descriptions to prove man’s unregenerate sin nature’s absolute and complete spiritual impotence.

    Yet our adversaries find in these vividly notorious descriptions no cause to reconsider their theory of free will.

    What was God’s purpose in sending Christ?

    The importance of this question cannot be overstated.

    Once we discover the purpose of Christ’s mission, we can then evaluate its success or failure.

    One of the prerequisite attributes of the true God is the power to accomplish all His purposes.

    Men’s purposes often fail. God never fails:

    ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’ (Isaiah 46:10).

    Failure is not an option for God.

    Consider the fact that His wisdom and power are infinite, guaranteeing that He knows what to do and exactly how to do it in order to accomplish His ends.

    So, what was God’s purpose in sending Christ?

    For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

    Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28).

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day (John 6:39).

    It is clearly evident that Christ came:

    1. To die for many

    2. To save the lost

    3. To save His people

    4. To lose none given Him by the Father

    Our opponents would have the purpose of the Father to have Christ die on behalf of all mankind.

    There is a caveat. His death is only effective for those who believe.

    Therefore, Christ was sent, not to actually and effectually save all mankind, but rather to offer the possibility of salvation, if men believe.

    Thus, they now turn Scripture upside down by declaring:

    1. Christ died for all men with the intention of saving all men

    2. Christ offers salvation, upon the condition of faith

    3. Depending on good and holy use of free will, man will be saved

    4. Most for whom Christ died will not be saved, His blood being shed in vain

    Can the reader discern the incongruity with Scripture?

    Our detractors posit failure and impotence in God’s resume.

    God tried His best, but it was not quite good enough to save all people.

    There were obstacles too great for the all-wise, all-powerful God to overcome.

    Our view of God, on the other hand, posits no defects in God or in His purpose to save.

    Christ was sent to save only those given Him by the Father.

    These sinners are called the Elect.

    It is for those He died.

    It is for those He prays.

    It is those He effectually calls to faith, by the regenerating power of His Spirit accompanying the seed and water of the Word.

    The Father never intended Christ to pay for the sins of those other than the Elect.

    All that the Father gave Christ will be saved.

    All others will be damned, according to the Father’s eternal, immutable will of good pleasure and purpose.

    The God we worship cannot fail to save those He purposed to save.

    Why He chose some and passed by others, He does not reveal.

    As Christians we are duty bound to believe what He has revealed in His Word.

    Do you, the reader, believe?
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  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Dec 7, 2009
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    What was God’s purpose in sending Christ?

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Does all in your list fall under that in bold?

    Relative to man did those works begin with Adam and extend to all the children of man, Adam? Before the man, Adam, was created in the image of his creator, yet a little lower than the angels, had this been determined to take place? 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    I ask that in order to ask; Was therefore Adam created in the image of his creator, yet made a little lower than the angels, created carnal, of the flesh, sold under sin along with all his children, being put in the presence of the devil for the above purpose?

    Do not we see the same thought in this verse NKJV Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

    Isn't the hope there, the Son of God as the Son of Man for the purpose of redeeming the body of flesh which had been sold under sin for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil?

    Why was Adam, created? So the Christ could be sent?
  5. Protestant

    Protestant Active Member

    Jul 6, 2013
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    Mr. Percho asks:

    “Why was Adam, created?”

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11).

    Mr. Percho says:

    “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

    Protestant responds:

    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1 Cor. 15:25-26).

    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy(John 10:10).

    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.41 You are doing the works your father did.”………………You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning(John 8:39-41, 44).

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them (Rev. 14:13).

    ….and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).