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Featured Has anyone ever heard anything like this.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ashleysdad, Sep 30, 2012.

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  1. ashleysdad

    ashleysdad Member

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    Okay, let me add some clarification. First yes it was the pastor that made these statements. Second, no it was not some curriculum that he was using, it was his own notes and materiel. Next, this severe of a statement is new, he has made other statements that have caused me to pause in the past (for instance, from the pulpit he has stated that it was during the 400 silent years between old and new testaments that God figured out how he would save mankind). As far as the comments concerning Jesus being created, there was no follow up or clarification offered and no, unfortunately I did not misunderstand or mishear. He started his message in Genesis 1:1 to establish the timing of when angels were created. He went on to Ezekiel to show discuss the position that Lucifer had held before being expelled from Heaven. This was when it got weird. He went to Colossians 1:15 where it speaks of Jesus being the firstborn of creation, his next statement was that God created Jesus and then Jesus was active in the creation he then turned to Job were it talks about the angels appearing before God his next statement was "one time when the angels came before God Jesus was standing at Gods right hand which is the place of prominence, this was when Lucifer was lifted up with pride and rebelled. After Lucifer was expelled Jesus volunteered to empty himself of glory and go to earth to die for mankind". After the service my first reaction was to pull my wife aside to confirm that I had heard what I thought I had heard. At the same time the kids in my youth group came up to me and were asking what they had just heard so I know that I heard what I thought I had heard. As far as if the deacons were handling this the answer to that is no. I am also a deacon at this church and to this point none of the other deacons have contacted me regarding this. I have made an appointment with the pastor to discuss this personally but I feel that at this point the only way to rectify this would be for him to recant this from the pulpit and acknowledge this as error. What I struggle with is exactly what should be done if he does recant. Obviously this would be great but does the church them move forward as if nothing had happened or is there something else that we would need to do. Never been in this position before so really need some advice. My biggest fear is that the pastor will not recant this and that the church will do nothing (this is the most likely outcome). Besides leaving the church would there be anything else that I would need to do.
     
    #21 ashleysdad, Oct 1, 2012
  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    You asked what should be done if he does not recant (or at a bare minimum- explain what he meant) - after you speak to him - as I stated before - used the directions in Matt 18.
    However, if he is going to these extremes - I would be very cautious about him staying under any circumstances.

    As a Deacon you are in a leadership role - is there a Chairman of the Deacons - then seek him out.

    I would hate to see a church fall into this doctrine, when there are folks like you (and the teens!) who can put a stop to this.

    As you continue, take each step in prayer.

    Salty
     
    #22 Salty, Oct 1, 2012
  3. Oldtimer

    Oldtimer New Member

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    Ashleysdad, first thank you for further defining the problem you've encountered. As with reading the scriptures, context matters greatly.

    Sounds like you've taken the right first step by meeting with the pastor to discuss his sermon. Depending on his age, education and experience levels, not only do you have the opportunity to ask him, first hand, why. As a Deacon, you may be in a position to help him grow in maturity in God's word.

    Especially, if he's young in calling, not years of living. Especially, if he doesn't have much formal education/training. Your comment about his random inclusion of things like the 400 period, makes me wonder if he has a lack of knowledge/understanding. If he's been in the pulpit for a long time, and especially, if he isn't what I call a lay preacher, then there's definitely something else going on.

    Depending on the results of your meeting with him, ditto Salty's comments.
     
    #23 Oldtimer, Oct 2, 2012
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The doctrine of a Baptist church in cooperative fellowship with the Southern Baptist Convention ascribes to the doctrinal statement of "The Baptist Faith and Message." That doctrinal statement clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God. The BF&M says, in the introduction, "Baptist churches, associations, and general bodies have adopted confessions of faith as a witness to the world, and as instruments of doctrinal accountability. We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice."

    I would make sure that the pastor did, in fact, say and believe what was posted, and if so, go to him with your copy of the Bible and the BF&M in hand and show him what God's word says and what Southern Baptists believe.

    If he will not acknowledge his doctrinal error, take two or three others, preferably deacons, and again confront him. If he refuses to acknowledge his doctrinal error, inform him that you intend to bring it before the church, assembled, at the next business meeting.

    If he refuses to acknowledge his doctrinal error the church should eject him from his office and the membership. If the church fails to do so your only recourse is to leave and find a church home elsewhere. :(
     
    #24 TCassidy, Oct 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  5. ashleysdad

    ashleysdad Member

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    I want to ask everyone to pray. I am meeting with my pastor this evening to discuss this and see where it goes. Thank you all for the advice so far. Also someone (salty?) asked about our church attendance. We run on average 30-35 in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings. This includes the youth which usually account for between 5-10 people. Thanks again and please pray.
     
    #25 ashleysdad, Oct 4, 2012
  6. Ryan.Samples

    Ryan.Samples New Member

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    I like that you are thinking positively--"how do we move forward if the pastor does recant?"--and not just negatively. In my opinion Galatians 2:11ff. may prove instructive. Here we see not only Peter but also Barnabus engaging in incorrect activity. Paul rebukes them, and of course Peter does not inherently stop ministering just because he made a mistake.

    If your pastor is willing to recant, it might be helpful for him to spend an entire "sermon" offering an apology, outlining the correct doctrine, and affirming his commitment to orthodox belief. I Timothy 5:20 says that elders are to be publicly rebuked for their sin. If this guy is willing to essentially rebuke himself, maybe that fulfills the intent of Scripture there.

    In short, I don't see that this situation inherently leads to "he's gotta go!" Again, that assumes he is willing to accept rebuke and acknowledge his shortcoming, and he promises to perhaps exercise a little more caution in future Scripture study.

    Praying for you today. Thanks for keeping us updated.
     
    #26 Ryan.Samples, Oct 4, 2012
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I will be praying. Please know that you are doing the right thing.
     
    #27 annsni, Oct 4, 2012
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Something just don't ring true here.

    A departure of this magnitude, and so in line with old and established Mormon/JW doctrines, could not have happened over night.
     
    #28 Aaron, Oct 4, 2012
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    If the info is correct and this is the SB church of his profile the SBC (or somebody) should be informed! (I'm not even SB anymore and this riles me; IF it's true)
     
    #29 kyredneck, Oct 4, 2012
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yep, I said the same thing. I'm sure the SBC would want to know what one of their pastors was teaching.
     
    #30 annsni, Oct 4, 2012
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The Convention can do nothing regarding doctrine or practice. They will not interfere with the internal workings of a church in cooperative fellowship. The local congregation will have to make any changes.
     
    #31 TCassidy, Oct 4, 2012
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Quite true, but the Association will step in and give advice - if requested.

    The only action the Association, State or SBC can do is to withdraw fellowship.
     
    #32 Salty, Oct 4, 2012
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